2024 New Jersey Teacher of the Year, Joe Nappi

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You are listening to The Balancing Act Podcast. Here's your hosts,

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Jamie Wonko and Joe Vitale.

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Hey, and we are officially recording. Hello, hello, and welcome back to The

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Balancing Act Podcast. I'm Jamie Wonko here with Mr.

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Joseph Vitale, and we are happy to say that Season 3 is brought to you by our

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principal sponsor, Teacher's Insurance Plan.

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to New Jersey and Pennsylvania educational employees. I got a hot take.

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Please support a business that supports our show, which we would greatly appreciate

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because we appreciate you. Don't we?

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We do. We do. So we have a guest today, a very special guest.

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We are going to have so many New Jersey Italians in the room.

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It's going to be, we need to like center ourselves and get ourselves ready for

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this one. So let's bring him in.

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Let me hit the right button here. Hey, Joe Nappy. How are you, buddy? Good to see you.

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Doing great, Joseph. How are you, Jamie? Great to see you. Thanks for having me on.

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Thank you so much for joining us today.

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You have been someone we've been trying to catch for quite a bit of time now.

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So we are excited that we've caught you in our pod here.

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We're so happy to have you and hear your inspirational story,

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which I have heard it before. And it is inspiring. So I'm very happy to hear it again.

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Yeah. So let's dive into this. Tell us a little bit about your journey and what

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makes Joe Nappy, Joe Nappy.

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Sure. So I got in the teaching for the money, right? It was all about that.

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Like we all do. Like we all do. I've never, never regretted that decision ever

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since to get in here to go through this. Nobody's got a side hustle.

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Yeah, I wish. I got to link up with teachers.

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Maybe I can get a side hustle sponsorship there. But, uh, no,

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I, I was, uh, quite the problem child, uh, in high school and middle school,

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you know, quite, quite the difficult situation for me.

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So I, I did not love school. I did not have big dreams of being a teacher.

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Um, I was actually quite happy to get out of high school, uh,

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entirely, which did not really end well for me.

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I was caught forging doctor's notes my senior year of high school,

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uh, and sort of politely asked to leave that it was in our best interest for

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me to move on at that point. Yeah.

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So not, not, uh, not quite the smooth sailing.

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And at the time my family lived in Bayonne. So I was quite happy.

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I honestly thought I was going to go work on the docks or maybe at the bulk

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center up on Tunnelly Ave.

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I was more than happy to be done with school. Uh, but my little brother,

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uh, was, you know, coming up behind me, was about to go into high school.

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And like, I was very happy to go off into the world and get a job,

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uh, working somewhere. I was done with school.

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I had not liked school. School had not liked me. It was a kind of a mutual decision there.

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And then my father decided that he was going to move us down to Bayville in

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Ocean County, New Jersey.

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And when we moved down there, it was kind of a fresh start for him to go to

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a new high school as a fresh start for my dad.

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And he basically made me an offer I couldn't refuse. Right. Our Italian theme

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today that, you know, if I.

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Went to community college because I had always been very bright,

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even though I had not much enjoyed school in my teens, that if I went to community

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college, I could get free room and board at his house and never one to miss

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a free meal off the community college I went.

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I was going to become filthy rich as a computer scientist.

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And that was my career path. And soon I found myself miserable again.

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Going to those college classes was not really much for me.

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So again, And what I didn't know through a lot of this story and what I understand

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now, because I was diagnosed with it in my 30s, is that I suffered with ADHD for most of my life.

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And this was part of the reason I've also been very intelligent.

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So I could like finish my work in a second and then be up disrupting your class

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for the rest of the remaining 60 minutes of the period. And I enjoyed the attention

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that I wasn't getting at home and all.

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There was a very complicated scenario. But, you know, somebody with undiagnosed

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ADHD as a computer science major is not really a career path that's going to work out very well.

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And I've soon found myself miserable again and considering dropping out.

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I didn't know exactly what I was going to do. I think if I'm being honest with

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you, it was a lot the fact that I had taken on student loans myself that kind

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of brought me back my sophomore year.

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And that sophomore year really changed my life forever. That was September of 2001.

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And having grown up in Bayonne, my stepmother ran a daycare center out of our

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house. I think it was illegal, but I think we're past the statute of limitations now.

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So I think I'm already telling you this. but you know at

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that point in time one of the two of the kids that she watched

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um her mother was their mother

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rather was actually killed uh in the world trade center um and

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growing up going to bayonne high school i've got a wonko here i know you know

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about this a little bit like bayonne high school whoever wrote the busing laws

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in new jersey i think was clearly from bayonne high school because it's a three

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mile peninsula so you can't get a bus no matter where you live the high school

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is like dead in the middle of town um so rather than take the city bus up in

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the morning colleen used to drive me up.

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So really from like freshman year, all the way through junior year,

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she was my ride up to school, uh, every single day.

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Um, and her death was really crushing to me. I, to watch her family go through

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that, to see all those things, uh, really kind of sent me into an existential

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crisis about like, what, what was this for?

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Like, am I really just, you know, going to suffer for the rest of my life to

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get a paycheck? Like, what, what do I want to do with this?

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Um, and it was the girl I was dating at the time, who's now actually my wife

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and out enjoying her afternoon at the gym is yeah she was the one who suggested

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to me that i would make a great teacher um and she pointed to my uncle he had

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worked in albany for years and like although he was never you know

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awarded, you know, teacher of the year or any of those like big awards or things

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like that, that came with it.

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Like he had a massive impact on kids' lives. And I remember hearing the stories

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of the kids that he had impacted and the things that he did.

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Um, so when I got into this profession, like a lot of the reason that I got

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into this was because I really truly believe that it gave me an opportunity

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to make a positive difference.

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Uh, and after 20 years in the profession, I'm positive that that is true,

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that, you know, you can absolutely make a positive difference on kids' lives and things like that.

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And that's really what's driven me through this career was to get in for some really lofty goals.

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And then, of course, I had no idea what I was doing.

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So, you know, kind of trying to saying you want to change the world is one thing actually doing it.

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Now, that's another story altogether. And I've spent the last 20 years in my

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classroom trying to figure out how to make that positive difference and how to have an impact.

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In kids' lives. And I've also spent a lot of time reflecting on my own scenario

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and what I didn't like about schooling,

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what I didn't get out of schooling, and how we might think about reforming that

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to make sure that we don't graduate kids out into the world who are so disenchanted

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with education that they're going to go work on the docs when they could have

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done so. Not that there's anything wrong working on the docs.

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I've got many wealthy friends who didn't take on the college loans that I did.

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So that's kind of the shortened version, Joe.

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I know you don't want to hear the the whole two hour version of that.

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He does want to hear it. I mean, I want to hear about because the longshoremen

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are, you know, making quadruple what we're making. So yeah, thank goodness.

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I remember early in my, uh, when we first bought the house here,

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I remember my friend, Brian, who's still a longshoreman over there was in the

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backyard saying, you know, you took on a hundred thousand dollars worth of loans

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and now you're taking on this mortgage over here to do this.

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And, uh, you know, I'm getting paid twice your salary and I didn't even finish high school.

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Through this. So, you know, there's something to be said there,

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but I do think there's, uh, you know, more of the life than money,

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uh, in a lot of ways, not that money is not nice and that that we shouldn't

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be paying teachers more than we should, but you know, I mean,

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I want to go back to the, to the forgery of doctor's notes.

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I mean, how, I think today with, I think today with, uh, you know,

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the medical laws, I would have gotten away with it.

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I think I could have gone through this. I always struggle with like,

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should I be telling this to students or not when I'm honest with these conversations,

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but it was, it was really a simple, I took doctor's notes.

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Like we, you would get the paper doctor's notes. And I figured out that if you

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white it out, the cause and the date that for 10 cents down at the library,

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you had as many doctor's notes as you want. So I would just write them in.

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Now, of course the default in my plan is that I don't know medical conditions.

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So I would write like stomach flu.

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So I think I had like 40 days of the stomach flu before this raised the attention

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of the nurse who I think raised the attention of the vice principal.

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Who then, uh, we had quite the conference, uh, after that. Yeah. Interesting.

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So, I mean, but it is, it's an interesting thing. And I talk about this sometimes

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with, with kids and with teachers too. I mean, it's an interesting question

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because I mean, honestly speaking, they could have held me back.

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I mean, like I was technically in violation of the attendance policy.

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I had too many days out. I didn't do this. I think like the infuriating part

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to them was that I was like passing classes, even though I'd been out for 40

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days through this because I was smart enough to sit down and get a 90 something on a test.

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And that was, you know, the way that we weight grades sometimes,

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like assessments are 60, 70% of the grade, uh, in the class.

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And I had really good SAT scores and I had this, and yet I was not coming to

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school or contributing anything meaningful.

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And like, I think there's like some really important reflections in that story,

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uh, that we often kind of gloss over, uh, in the things to go through it.

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So I mean, it's interesting on a lot of levels, Joe, I'm sure we could do a

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many podcasts on unpacking.

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Yeah, you also mentioned about now as an adult being diagnosed with ADHD and

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as someone who also has some OCD diagnosis myself as I got older,

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it kind of opens your eyes to things that happened in the past.

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Like, are, are there, you know, undiagnosed things that you experienced in your

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educational career that maybe,

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you know, could have been treated a little bit differently, you know?

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So you make some very good points and some valid points about,

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you know, things that we, we might need to reflect back and look on.

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So for sure. I hope so. I mean, I mean, and again, I think it's always a question

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of resources and education.

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You know, I don't have to lecture two teachers about how hard it is to have

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the resources that you need, you know, and to be supported and those sorts of

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things. But, you know, it's definitely for me, I was passing classes.

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And like, that was the only seeming standard or like the only way that I would

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have been evaluated, or I would have been taken down to like,

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look at the issues that were happening.

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Like the fact that I was, you know, smoking weed before school every day,

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didn't seem to register,

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you know, on those things, the fact that I was like super angry and like,

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you know, wearing Slayer shirts and drawing, you know, skulls on every paper

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that, you know, I'm like some of the things I think that might be like some

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interesting warning signs to have a conversation with, we're lost in the sauce.

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And like, in fairness to my teachers have been on high school,

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because I don't put any blame on them too. It was quite the situation up there

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to have to try to deal with.

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And I give a lot of credit to your father-in-law for trying to keep this ship

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on track because there were a lot of issues in Bayonne High School that a kid

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struggling with divorce and his own sort of issues probably was at the bottom

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of the heap of fires that my teachers were putting out on any given day while they were in that place.

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So I give them a tremendous amount of respect, even though we didn't necessarily

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click in the way that I wish that we would have. I don't fault them for that at all.

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I just think that, you know, it's something that to be cognizant of in this

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profession or that, you know, there's a lot of kids out there that need your

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help, even if they're not necessarily on the radar of the child study team necessarily.

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Yeah. And I think also when you think about like the mid 90s,

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the topics that we are like openly share now about diagnoses and mental health

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awareness weren't handled properly.

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If at all, um, certainly not in the way that they are today.

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Um, they're not, you know, recognized, appreciated, acknowledged in the same way.

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Um, there was no, there was, there was no, uh, uh, social emotional learning.

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It was rubbed some dirt on it. Like we, well, you know, we all heard that. Right.

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Um, yeah, different time. Right. I mean, we all were in school around that,

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you know, in the nineties at the same time.

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So, I mean, Joe is the oldest if anyone's keeping score. I'm a,

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what am I, 58, according to your, according to your husband?

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Every, every year I'm older.

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Oh my goodness. Two Joes and a Jamie. I should say Joseph is the oldest.

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Yes, I am. I have it on my, yeah, there you go.

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So yeah, you, you also, I know one of the things we were trying to lock down

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a time to talk and you said like, Hey, I'm going to be in Europe this summer

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with the New Jersey Holocaust commission and traveling around.

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And I was very intrigued by that. I mean, you're talking to two history teachers here.

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So I'd love to hear about a little bit about that, that journey,

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you know, in the trip that you took this summer. And also, you know,

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what the impetus behind that whole thing was. So, yeah, so I mean,

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we have, and honestly, you, you two are prime candidates. If you wanted to go

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on this trip too, it's running every year, uh, through the New Jersey Holocaust commission.

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And this is, I mean, it's truly an exceptional trip. It's like a once in a lifetime kind of event here.

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Uh, Maude Dame, um, who is a local, like she's literally in the New Jersey hall of fame.

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Uh, she was the president of the board of education.

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She was one of the, uh, you know, four formative members of the New Jersey Holocaust

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commission to begin with.

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And she was also a hidden child in the Netherlands during World War II.

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Holocaust survivor who shares her story publicly and goes out and talks about this.

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I mean, and she's literally a national treasure. She's just an unbelievable person to be around.

00:14:06.409 --> 00:14:12.309
She's going to turn 90 in January and has more energy than I do at half her age to go through.

00:14:12.389 --> 00:14:15.829
So she's always, you know, somewhat making me question my life decisions about

00:14:15.829 --> 00:14:19.309
what maybe I should be doing better to take care of myself.

00:14:19.429 --> 00:14:21.809
But she reads this journey through Europe.

00:14:21.949 --> 00:14:26.249
So you go to Berlin and then from Berlin, we take a tour through three cities.

00:14:26.489 --> 00:14:30.729
Well, first we stop in Prague and then we go through three cities in Poland.

00:14:31.309 --> 00:14:34.469
Sort of touring through camps, touring through the experience that many of her

00:14:34.469 --> 00:14:37.229
family members, unfortunately, suffered at the hands of the Nazis.

00:14:37.609 --> 00:14:43.809
And then the trip ends with four days in Amsterdam and we tour the village that saved her.

00:14:44.149 --> 00:14:48.169
You go back to the actual house that she was hidden in, you hear her story firsthand.

00:14:48.389 --> 00:14:51.729
I mean, it's absolutely unbelievable. And again, like I'm somebody who's been

00:14:51.729 --> 00:14:54.909
teaching the Holocaust for a long time and I've been to, you know,

00:14:55.089 --> 00:14:58.209
lots of museums and professional development workshops and all those sorts of things.

00:14:58.289 --> 00:15:01.149
And I've always kind of aspired to go over to see it.

00:15:01.249 --> 00:15:05.409
And I know going to see these things is, you know, it's an unbelievable experience

00:15:05.409 --> 00:15:10.189
to be there, but to be there and to be guided through it by somebody who lived it.

00:15:10.627 --> 00:15:14.547
I think just adds such another element to this. And they really do a fantastic

00:15:14.547 --> 00:15:18.507
job of like bringing in all these different perspectives and complicating the

00:15:18.507 --> 00:15:22.227
story and not leaving you with like, you know, really simplistic, good guy,

00:15:22.347 --> 00:15:27.007
bad guy narratives here, but really helping you to really grapple with the complexity

00:15:27.007 --> 00:15:31.007
and the challenges that people had to deal with in these scenarios, right?

00:15:31.067 --> 00:15:34.327
That it wasn't as easy. I mean, I always say this, like you teach younger kids

00:15:34.327 --> 00:15:36.787
and they're just like, oh, I would punch the Nazis and we would have,

00:15:36.827 --> 00:15:40.067
you know, like when you live it and you're in these experiences and you see

00:15:40.067 --> 00:15:45.327
this sort of stuff, like it's really, really tough to wrap your mind around it and understand.

00:15:45.327 --> 00:15:48.087
They do it in a respectful way. They do it in an accessible way.

00:15:48.207 --> 00:15:52.447
They do it in a way where not only do you learn all day about really heavy history,

00:15:52.587 --> 00:15:54.407
but you also have the night to kind of relax.

00:15:54.407 --> 00:15:57.347
Um, and Maud's very good at kind of breaking the ice and, and,

00:15:57.607 --> 00:16:00.507
you know, not only just deleting us in reflection, but, you know,

00:16:00.587 --> 00:16:04.067
giving us the freedom to kind of enjoy ourselves in the evening and to blow

00:16:04.067 --> 00:16:07.487
off some steam. So it's not just a tremendously emotionally taxing journey.

00:16:07.967 --> 00:16:10.987
Um, so I keep teasing her, you know, I give her vitamins. I'm like,

00:16:11.067 --> 00:16:13.707
you got 10 more years in your mod. You can keep doing this to your 100.

00:16:13.887 --> 00:16:14.787
There's no doubt about that.

00:16:15.007 --> 00:16:18.327
Um, but this is offered every single year. And I would just say to you,

00:16:18.387 --> 00:16:20.427
if you're a teacher in New Jersey, it's open to you.

00:16:20.647 --> 00:16:26.447
Uh, you can apply through it. the NJA is tremendously generous in paying half the cost of this.

00:16:26.847 --> 00:16:30.247
There are grant opportunities out there that could cover the other piece of

00:16:30.247 --> 00:16:31.507
this, but I mean, I would say.

00:16:32.070 --> 00:16:38.350
This entire two weeks in Europe, top-notch hotels, like the best learning experience

00:16:38.350 --> 00:16:40.490
on the Holocaust that I've ever had in my entire life.

00:16:41.010 --> 00:16:45.970
And again, you're going out of pocket like $2,500, including your spending money to do that.

00:16:46.110 --> 00:16:48.790
I mean, like it's the bargain of a lifetime to go out and do this.

00:16:48.870 --> 00:16:51.030
And again, if you're creative with some of the grant opportunities,

00:16:51.030 --> 00:16:55.310
I had members of my cohort who went out, you know, and didn't pay anything out

00:16:55.310 --> 00:16:56.950
of pocket because they got it picked up by grants.

00:16:57.070 --> 00:16:59.550
They got it picked up by other people who were out there. So I would greatly

00:16:59.550 --> 00:17:03.070
encourage everyone, you know, if you have that opportunity while you still can

00:17:03.070 --> 00:17:06.730
to see this stuff with a Holocaust survivor as your guide to go over there,

00:17:06.850 --> 00:17:09.490
like, again, I would tell you to go on the trip, even if she wasn't there.

00:17:09.750 --> 00:17:12.950
But, you know, the fact that she's there and that she's committed to going back

00:17:12.950 --> 00:17:16.670
on the 90th year, I mean, it's just, it's so special. It's something that I'm still processing.

00:17:17.050 --> 00:17:20.290
We came back in July and like, I'll still sit down and like,

00:17:20.430 --> 00:17:23.770
think about something else that, you know, I need to reflect on there.

00:17:23.870 --> 00:17:25.290
So I can't recommend it enough.

00:17:25.410 --> 00:17:29.850
It's just an incredible opportunity. And that's what you teach at your,

00:17:30.130 --> 00:17:31.510
and what school are you at again? I'm sorry.

00:17:31.810 --> 00:17:39.070
Hold on, hold on. Let's back up a little bit because we went from 2001 to 2025,

00:17:39.070 --> 00:17:43.150
but we missed a little bit of time in between.

00:17:43.450 --> 00:17:46.950
So can we just backtrack for a second and go back to 2001?

00:17:46.950 --> 00:17:56.590
In one, you have this like tragedy that hits close to home and you are now pivoting

00:17:56.590 --> 00:18:00.290
to where, where am I in this world and what am I doing next?

00:18:01.310 --> 00:18:06.430
Right. And my wife was the one who really pushed me in this direction of being a teacher.

00:18:06.630 --> 00:18:08.750
And one of the things that you said to me at the time, cause I mean,

00:18:08.770 --> 00:18:10.630
I kind of laughed at the idea of being a teacher.

00:18:10.770 --> 00:18:13.970
Like it was like, I was very happy to never go back to school and that was not

00:18:14.330 --> 00:18:15.830
something I had on my bingo card.

00:18:16.110 --> 00:18:18.370
And one of the things that she said to me was like, you know,

00:18:18.450 --> 00:18:21.690
if you were in charge, you could make it anything that you wanted it to be.

00:18:22.384 --> 00:18:25.104
And that was something that's really exciting to me.

00:18:25.224 --> 00:18:28.284
Like it's something that I still think about a lot about how do you change?

00:18:28.364 --> 00:18:31.944
And I think it's one of the beautiful things about this profession is that you

00:18:31.944 --> 00:18:36.544
really do have the opportunity to shape your day to day and to figure out what

00:18:36.544 --> 00:18:40.464
you really want to do with these kids and how to move them forward and to do those sort of things.

00:18:40.544 --> 00:18:43.664
And it's really, you know, that challenge of that, that consistent growth,

00:18:43.804 --> 00:18:45.564
that consistent thing is something that I looked into.

00:18:45.664 --> 00:18:49.944
So I went and enrolled into an education program over there.

00:18:49.944 --> 00:18:55.124
I went to history, honestly, to understand 2001, like I don't sugarcoat this part of the story at all.

00:18:55.304 --> 00:18:59.384
I was not a very tolerant and loving young man when I came out of high school.

00:18:59.604 --> 00:19:03.924
And 9-11 certainly did not push me in a direction towards more tolerance.

00:19:04.124 --> 00:19:08.244
And I went into history really with like this idea of like, understand your enemy.

00:19:08.584 --> 00:19:12.084
And I was like studying Islamic culture and trying to understand all those things.

00:19:12.184 --> 00:19:16.504
All my brothers were in the military. So that was a very confusing time in my life.

00:19:16.764 --> 00:19:20.704
So I had this like aspirational idea about like trying to do something positive

00:19:20.704 --> 00:19:23.124
with it, but I was also still a very lost young man.

00:19:23.204 --> 00:19:28.384
And I give a lot of credit to education and sort of breaking some of these things,

00:19:28.484 --> 00:19:31.504
especially I, you know, I had some teachers who taught me, I took a class,

00:19:31.604 --> 00:19:33.084
I think pretty sure I'm still on a watch list.

00:19:33.184 --> 00:19:35.624
This is why I get searched so often when I go through the airport.

00:19:35.764 --> 00:19:38.984
Cause I took all these classes on like radical Islamist thought.

00:19:39.124 --> 00:19:42.784
So you're like buying the books that like Osama bin Laden read and like reading

00:19:42.784 --> 00:19:45.384
the sort of backstories to these things.

00:19:45.584 --> 00:19:52.924
And like, as wild as that was, like my teacher did such a phenomenal job of framing this as it is.

00:19:52.984 --> 00:19:55.624
And like, I still use this analogy in my class with kids.

00:19:55.724 --> 00:19:58.244
Like I grew up in a Christian household. I grew up in a Catholic household,

00:19:58.464 --> 00:20:01.084
you know, no judgment on wherever anybody comes from.

00:20:01.949 --> 00:20:05.349
You know, there's an organization called the Ku Klux Klan that's out there.

00:20:05.629 --> 00:20:09.069
And, you know, if you go to the Ku Klux Klan's website and don't go to the Ku

00:20:09.069 --> 00:20:10.529
Klux Klan's website, don't give them clicks.

00:20:10.689 --> 00:20:14.449
But if you did go to the Ku Klux Klan's website, we will not be linking that.

00:20:14.649 --> 00:20:17.849
We will not be linking that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Don't put that on the figure down at the bottom.

00:20:17.949 --> 00:20:21.329
We don't need any hits for the clan, but the, the clan's website,

00:20:21.449 --> 00:20:25.269
like they describe themselves as a Christian organization.

00:20:25.289 --> 00:20:28.349
Like this is in the first line of their thing.

00:20:28.489 --> 00:20:30.409
And like, one of the things that she phrased to me was like,

00:20:30.509 --> 00:20:31.869
you know, you haven't grown up as a Christian.

00:20:32.009 --> 00:20:35.509
How would you like it if somebody who was completely ignorant to your entire

00:20:35.509 --> 00:20:40.009
culture, the way that they were introduced to it was through the clan doing

00:20:40.009 --> 00:20:41.289
something horrible to their family.

00:20:41.429 --> 00:20:44.829
And then you understanding Christianity through the lens of the clan,

00:20:44.929 --> 00:20:49.089
like how would that, you know what I mean? And that really shifted my perspective.

00:20:49.189 --> 00:20:54.529
And like, I give a ton of credit to my teachers for really humanizing a population

00:20:54.529 --> 00:20:58.389
that I was othering in my mind. Like I was at war with this population.

00:20:58.569 --> 00:21:03.209
It really pushed me to go and sit down and listen to a mom's and talk about

00:21:03.209 --> 00:21:04.609
the faith and hear these sort of things.

00:21:05.109 --> 00:21:09.649
And to me, it was a tremendous eye-opening experience, helping me understand

00:21:09.649 --> 00:21:14.409
how ignorant I was, how one-sided I was, how I wasn't looking in multiple perspectives over here.

00:21:14.509 --> 00:21:18.569
It ended up being very cathartic for me, I think, because you needed that,

00:21:18.649 --> 00:21:22.249
I think, for myself to heal and to let that anger go and go away,

00:21:22.449 --> 00:21:23.849
let those sort of things happen.

00:21:24.009 --> 00:21:27.389
And it's also something that I think is valuable to bring back to your kids

00:21:27.389 --> 00:21:31.089
in your classroom is that even if you teach, and unfortunately we teach in one

00:21:31.089 --> 00:21:34.069
of the most segregated states in the country, if not the most segregated state

00:21:34.069 --> 00:21:35.269
for education in the country.

00:21:35.629 --> 00:21:37.809
But, you know, I was in a class with no Muslims.

00:21:38.787 --> 00:21:42.987
And this teacher shifted my perspective in a way where I saw their humanity

00:21:42.987 --> 00:21:44.327
for the first time in my life.

00:21:44.407 --> 00:21:47.227
And I'm like, I'm ashamed that I'm, it was 20, you know what I mean?

00:21:47.267 --> 00:21:48.607
Or 19 when that happened.

00:21:48.807 --> 00:21:52.007
But, you know, I don't think lying about that is also, you know,

00:21:52.107 --> 00:21:54.327
serves anybody any purpose, you know?

00:21:54.427 --> 00:21:59.107
And so I think that's really what education offers you, you know,

00:21:59.147 --> 00:22:01.427
if you take some time to consider that outside of it.

00:22:01.427 --> 00:22:05.487
To me, it's never been about test scores or any of those sort of things.

00:22:05.487 --> 00:22:09.207
It's about the impact that you can make on a kid, the critical thinking that

00:22:09.207 --> 00:22:11.987
you can give to a kid, the different perspectives on the world that you can

00:22:11.987 --> 00:22:15.307
give to a kid that can really, I think, are more valuable than almost anything

00:22:15.307 --> 00:22:16.827
else you can take with you out into the world.

00:22:20.620 --> 00:22:26.840
Yeah, that's a very powerful message. And one that I think sometimes I really

00:22:26.840 --> 00:22:29.840
I applaud the fact that you're being so honest about, you know,

00:22:30.020 --> 00:22:34.060
your journey and where you came from and where, you know, what kind of headspace you were in.

00:22:34.060 --> 00:22:38.220
I'm sure you're not the only American who grew up in this area,

00:22:38.220 --> 00:22:42.680
who witnessed some of the things that take place and had the loss that you had,

00:22:42.920 --> 00:22:53.020
who maybe had some bias or negative thoughts about an entire group and religion full of people.

00:22:55.540 --> 00:22:59.160
It's definitely something that you needed to reframe it. I applaud that teacher

00:22:59.160 --> 00:23:02.080
for the perspective that they gave you and how they, you know,

00:23:02.160 --> 00:23:05.480
how they kind of spun it to allow you to think about it a different way. That's very powerful.

00:23:06.660 --> 00:23:11.200
I think so too. And again, it's what eventually leads me into Holocaust education, right?

00:23:11.260 --> 00:23:13.640
It's trying to, because I mean, I think at the heart of this,

00:23:13.760 --> 00:23:17.560
like if I get down and I boiled this down to like, what was it that made me pursue this?

00:23:18.040 --> 00:23:23.820
It was that somebody murdered somebody that I cared about because of who they were.

00:23:24.700 --> 00:23:28.560
Right. And I think that that sort of blind hatred, that othering,

00:23:28.700 --> 00:23:30.320
that completely distant itself is,

00:23:30.520 --> 00:23:35.000
you know, it was kind of a natural progression that as I started to dig into

00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:37.420
questions that look like that, that I ended up at the Holocaust,

00:23:37.600 --> 00:23:42.520
arguably, you know, the largest scale version of that sort of mentality.

00:23:42.540 --> 00:23:46.220
And I wish I could sit here and tell you like, oh, it's completely gone from society, Joseph.

00:23:46.360 --> 00:23:51.160
And we're, you know, we've moved on to a promising new world of utopian dreams out here.

00:23:51.160 --> 00:23:54.520
But unfortunately, these lessons and trying to get these across to kids,

00:23:54.560 --> 00:23:58.360
especially who live in these social media bubbles who exist in these worlds

00:23:58.360 --> 00:24:00.620
that are often, you know,

00:24:00.920 --> 00:24:04.260
very apathetic and very, you know, opposed to sort of, you know,

00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:06.500
human empathy and understanding other positions.

00:24:06.500 --> 00:24:09.280
And we've all kind of siloed ourselves into these different spots.

00:24:09.380 --> 00:24:13.040
Like, I think these lessons are more important now than ever as we go through.

00:24:14.175 --> 00:24:18.495
Agree. So where did you continue to go? So after you left community college,

00:24:18.715 --> 00:24:20.315
where did you continue your education?

00:24:20.595 --> 00:24:25.795
And then tell us also, after college, where did you start teaching?

00:24:26.515 --> 00:24:30.615
All right. So I went to Ocean County College and then I went from Ocean County

00:24:30.615 --> 00:24:33.715
College. My advice, I say this all to people, I think community college was great.

00:24:33.815 --> 00:24:37.255
I got a phenomenal education there at OCC, even though it wasn't my choice to go there.

00:24:37.355 --> 00:24:41.115
My grade point average was 2.0, so I had a lot of options, but it was a phenomenal

00:24:41.115 --> 00:24:45.375
education that I got at the community college and saved me a lot of money that I didn't have.

00:24:45.855 --> 00:24:50.095
And then I went off to Rowan. So Rowan University was where I ended up doing

00:24:50.095 --> 00:24:54.915
my teaching degree and ended up getting my history major there from them.

00:24:55.495 --> 00:24:59.615
Um, and senior year when I was doing my student teaching, my father had a stroke.

00:24:59.895 --> 00:25:03.175
Um, so I ended up having to go back home to take care of him.

00:25:03.295 --> 00:25:05.295
So the end of my senior year was very chaotic.

00:25:05.515 --> 00:25:10.015
Uh, for me, I was like driving back and forth to Bayville to help take care

00:25:10.015 --> 00:25:12.335
of him and going back to finish my classes.

00:25:12.655 --> 00:25:16.275
So when school ended, I kind of like abruptly shut it down and went back to

00:25:16.275 --> 00:25:20.515
Bayville. I was cooking at the time. This was like my side hustle through college was cooking.

00:25:21.255 --> 00:25:25.015
And I applied to 50 high schools across the state, you know,

00:25:25.095 --> 00:25:27.615
and not, not to toot my own horn, but I was pretty good.

00:25:27.695 --> 00:25:30.695
I mean, at this point I was paying my loans entirely.

00:25:30.935 --> 00:25:33.935
You know, my dad was a postal worker with five kids. So there's not,

00:25:34.115 --> 00:25:36.715
you know, the 529 did not exist in my family.

00:25:36.835 --> 00:25:39.275
It was all on me, uh, you know, to pay these things off.

00:25:39.555 --> 00:25:43.435
So for me, you know, I took my education very seriously.

00:25:43.635 --> 00:25:47.095
I was like top of my class education, you know, award, uh, you know,

00:25:47.235 --> 00:25:51.515
for their, they gave these, uh, medallion awards for like student teaching excellence,

00:25:51.515 --> 00:25:53.835
but I couldn't get called back for an interview.

00:25:53.935 --> 00:25:57.615
They're like the only two districts that I got an interview in was Jackson.

00:25:57.855 --> 00:26:03.715
Cause I knew a teacher there and Monmouth regional because my fiance's aunt was the.

00:26:05.074 --> 00:26:09.634
Uh, secretary of child study team. Like that's it. Nobody else wanted to talk to me.

00:26:09.894 --> 00:26:13.134
I went to both of those interviews. Apparently they did not go too well because

00:26:13.134 --> 00:26:14.914
both of them passed on me to go through.

00:26:15.034 --> 00:26:17.474
Jackson was about to open Liberty high school. So they were like,

00:26:17.494 --> 00:26:19.534
if you want to sub for a year, you can come back.

00:26:19.774 --> 00:26:23.454
And I just couldn't afford it. I was paying my dad's mortgage at that point in time.

00:26:23.574 --> 00:26:26.914
Like there was a lot of stuff going on. So I was, you know, I needed money.

00:26:26.994 --> 00:26:30.094
So I was happy to stay cooking and doing that sort of stuff.

00:26:30.414 --> 00:26:33.174
Um, and then Monmouth regional passed on me.

00:26:33.454 --> 00:26:35.874
And I was kind of having panic attacks. Honestly, I thought like,

00:26:35.934 --> 00:26:38.314
oh, I spent all this money. I got to pay all these loans. I'm just going to

00:26:38.314 --> 00:26:40.434
be cooking forever. I should listen to my friends.

00:26:40.574 --> 00:26:43.414
It's just went right to do this. And then I got a call.

00:26:43.574 --> 00:26:47.754
I think it was like August 30th. The person that they had hired as a maternity

00:26:47.754 --> 00:26:52.574
leave fill-in at Monmouth Regional High School bailed and went to Old Bridge for more money.

00:26:52.876 --> 00:26:57.076
And they called me like August 30th and were like, can you come in and start tomorrow?

00:26:57.576 --> 00:27:00.416
And it was like, yeah, I'll be there. Absolutely. So I got, I remember I was

00:27:00.416 --> 00:27:05.596
teaching like the maternity leave for like all like AP and honors history class

00:27:05.596 --> 00:27:09.176
and like nothing that I was familiar with at that point in time.

00:27:09.316 --> 00:27:12.316
So I'm like reading the book. It was a, the first year was a disaster.

00:27:12.456 --> 00:27:15.776
Like it was just like literally, you know, as a cliche as it is,

00:27:15.876 --> 00:27:19.516
like, let me just stay one day ahead of these kids and pray they don't figure

00:27:19.516 --> 00:27:22.336
out I'm a fraud. Uh, that was kind of my first year.

00:27:22.436 --> 00:27:26.896
And then, uh, you know, the, after that, uh, the woman who I was doing the maternity

00:27:26.896 --> 00:27:30.056
leave with another member of our department ended up moving up to vice principal.

00:27:30.336 --> 00:27:33.836
Uh, so they offered me the position and I've been there ever since.

00:27:33.976 --> 00:27:37.816
So this was a 20 years later. I'm still at the reach. Go Falcons.

00:27:38.596 --> 00:27:43.796
Very nice. Um, and you're specifically teaching Holocaust, uh, history, correct?

00:27:44.096 --> 00:27:48.036
At the. Yeah. So I run a dual enrollment course with, uh, Kane university.

00:27:48.036 --> 00:27:50.376
So the kids get college credits their senior year.

00:27:50.476 --> 00:27:52.796
So it's a senior elective. So I have two sections of that.

00:27:52.976 --> 00:27:56.696
Uh, I also teaching a U S history one, which I kind of love.

00:27:56.796 --> 00:27:59.556
We do like some local history stuff in our community in Tenton falls,

00:27:59.696 --> 00:28:00.636
which is super fascinating.

00:28:00.856 --> 00:28:04.356
Uh, and I've had the honor the last couple of years of doing intro to psychology,

00:28:04.356 --> 00:28:07.156
which is actually what I started with in my student teaching,

00:28:07.156 --> 00:28:10.616
uh, and then got an opportunity to come back and teach, uh, later on,

00:28:10.616 --> 00:28:14.916
which is a really super fun class and has so many interesting connections with the Holocaust,

00:28:15.476 --> 00:28:19.356
which is really like social psychology has really been a fascinating lens to

00:28:19.356 --> 00:28:20.816
think about all these things through.

00:28:21.016 --> 00:28:24.376
So I think in my years, I think I've taught about it.

00:28:24.496 --> 00:28:27.496
I mean, I can't think of a class like sociology, psychology,

00:28:27.856 --> 00:28:31.496
worlds, US 1, US 2, economics.

00:28:31.876 --> 00:28:35.156
I mean, I don't know if there is a class out there that I haven't taught at

00:28:35.156 --> 00:28:36.836
this point in time. So if really.

00:28:37.446 --> 00:28:43.526
Had a lot of them, but I, I do prefer, uh, kind of the U S to and the Holocaust lens.

00:28:43.886 --> 00:28:47.666
Uh, so I was very happy when I had the opportunity to get that class, uh, and to teach that.

00:28:48.226 --> 00:28:51.886
Well, and, and we jump forward a little bit to 2024, right.

00:28:52.126 --> 00:28:56.806
Giving the Joe Nappy timeline, uh, and you were named, uh, New Jersey's,

00:28:56.806 --> 00:29:00.946
uh, state teacher of the year, uh, which is, which is a pretty amazing journey

00:29:01.366 --> 00:29:05.786
to think about, you know, this, the Slayer kid in the back of the room,

00:29:05.926 --> 00:29:07.646
uh, drawn skulls on his notebook.

00:29:07.946 --> 00:29:11.046
I was friends with a lot of those kids. Uh, not going to lie.

00:29:11.646 --> 00:29:14.506
Um, I didn't listen to the music, but I was friends with a lot of those kids.

00:29:14.826 --> 00:29:19.206
Um, but yeah, it, it, it's a very interesting journey for you to be,

00:29:19.206 --> 00:29:25.006
you know, going on that path and wind up being, you know, New Jersey state teacher of the year.

00:29:25.146 --> 00:29:28.466
I got to ask how that actually comes about. Cause I'm just curious.

00:29:29.186 --> 00:29:34.246
Uh, so I got nominated as my school's teacher of the year, right?

00:29:34.326 --> 00:29:39.106
So that was one of the, that in our school, you get put up by somebody nominates you.

00:29:39.266 --> 00:29:40.186
And then there's a committee of

00:29:40.186 --> 00:29:44.126
teachers who decides who that is in that year. So I got put in that way.

00:29:44.246 --> 00:29:49.166
And then as the teacher of the year, you get a chance to apply as the county teacher of the year.

00:29:49.766 --> 00:29:53.586
I got teacher of the year in the district, I think like back in 2010.

00:29:53.586 --> 00:29:55.666
And I was just so busy. I was coaching football.

00:29:55.846 --> 00:29:59.926
I was doing this. I was doing that. I never had ever submitted the county teacher

00:29:59.926 --> 00:30:03.186
of the year application. And I always kind of felt bad about that because I

00:30:03.186 --> 00:30:06.346
was like, oh, who knows Not that I would have done it, but I felt like I should

00:30:06.346 --> 00:30:08.786
have at least, you know, if you did that, you got that opportunity.

00:30:09.146 --> 00:30:11.866
So when I got the second chance to do it, I was like, really,

00:30:12.006 --> 00:30:15.106
you know, wrote the essays and really paid attention and did those things.

00:30:15.106 --> 00:30:16.326
Also helped that I wasn't coaching.

00:30:16.466 --> 00:30:19.926
I don't know if I would have had time, you know, to do it at that point in time.

00:30:20.006 --> 00:30:23.646
But my kids were in sort of the minivan stage. So I'd stepped away from football

00:30:23.646 --> 00:30:25.326
to make sure that I was there with them.

00:30:25.617 --> 00:30:29.957
Uh, through those years. So I wrote those essays and then they pick you as County.

00:30:30.137 --> 00:30:33.457
Um, and then if you get picked as County, you're automatically in a state.

00:30:33.757 --> 00:30:37.577
And then I got picked as the state and then it went on to national going over

00:30:37.577 --> 00:30:39.977
there. And then I ended up being a national finalist. And I was like,

00:30:39.997 --> 00:30:41.077
this is really getting out of it.

00:30:41.197 --> 00:30:45.677
This is, uh, and it's not, not exactly what I had signed up for when I put in

00:30:45.677 --> 00:30:48.577
for the County teacher of the year, but I mean, it's been an incredible journey.

00:30:48.697 --> 00:30:51.637
It was, uh, part of the, the cool parts about winning

00:30:51.637 --> 00:30:54.477
state teacher of the year are that you

00:30:54.477 --> 00:30:57.377
get to sort of join this cohort of teachers

00:30:57.377 --> 00:31:00.217
from all across the country um and that honestly there's been

00:31:00.217 --> 00:31:03.137
a lot of cool stuff getting to go to the white house and space camp which

00:31:03.137 --> 00:31:05.957
was always like i don't know if you remember that movie from the 80s i

00:31:05.957 --> 00:31:10.477
do you know into that you know as a kid so that was kind of like a very bizarre

00:31:10.477 --> 00:31:13.797
thing to get a chance to actually go to space camp and do that and you know

00:31:13.797 --> 00:31:17.137
get a chance to like sit down with cory booker and talk as you go you know these

00:31:17.137 --> 00:31:20.457
are things that like i never thought in my life would ever actually happen to

00:31:20.457 --> 00:31:23.657
me so it's been great in a lot of different ways to go through.

00:31:23.777 --> 00:31:26.917
But I really do feel like, you know, getting the chance to meet these teachers

00:31:26.917 --> 00:31:29.977
from all over the country and hear their incredible stories,

00:31:30.137 --> 00:31:33.517
because every single one of them, like when you have a chance just to like in

00:31:33.517 --> 00:31:35.977
a downtime, to just have a beer and talk to them and hear,

00:31:36.197 --> 00:31:38.917
you know, what it is that brought them here, like it's unbelievable,

00:31:39.197 --> 00:31:40.497
the stuff that people do.

00:31:40.717 --> 00:31:44.417
And I know that they feel the same way that I do, which is that,

00:31:44.517 --> 00:31:45.957
you know, I'm not the best teacher in New Jersey.

00:31:46.097 --> 00:31:49.677
I'm not the best teacher in my house, right? My wife is a better teacher than

00:31:49.677 --> 00:31:53.837
I am, who's over there to go through this. Like teaching is not a competitive sport.

00:31:54.117 --> 00:31:58.757
And every single one of us knows, like I could tell you 10 other teachers that

00:31:58.757 --> 00:32:02.277
have done so many incredible things that have an incredible story that do this

00:32:02.277 --> 00:32:03.717
and they just don't get recognized.

00:32:04.137 --> 00:32:08.757
So I think having that moment, like to elevate other people in my life and tell

00:32:08.757 --> 00:32:11.937
these stories and hear about, you know, people who are making an impact every

00:32:11.937 --> 00:32:15.417
single day, that to me has been like a really meaningful part of this experience.

00:32:15.417 --> 00:32:17.977
So it was cool in a lot of different ways, but it was like, uh,

00:32:18.197 --> 00:32:19.477
kind of an added control over it.

00:32:19.557 --> 00:32:22.277
I think when we were talking about Nashville, it was like, I'm going to be out for a

00:32:22.467 --> 00:32:25.227
two years out of my classroom. Like, I just want to go back and teach.

00:32:25.467 --> 00:32:29.507
I was never like aspiring for the DOE or like some administrative position.

00:32:29.627 --> 00:32:31.887
I just love teachers. Like, I just want to go back to my classroom.

00:32:32.247 --> 00:32:35.587
So I know I got, it was, it was an interesting ride, uh, you know,

00:32:35.667 --> 00:32:39.007
to go through that process, but I'm glad now that I'm, I'm back where I belong

00:32:39.007 --> 00:32:40.467
with my kids in the classroom.

00:32:41.067 --> 00:32:45.867
You know, one of the, I'd be interested to hear what some of your conversations

00:32:45.867 --> 00:32:48.547
were with Corey Booker about the state of our profession.

00:32:48.907 --> 00:32:50.767
It's something that we talk about often.

00:32:52.167 --> 00:32:55.907
If you're watching this on the YouTubes or on Spotify or anywhere else where

00:32:55.907 --> 00:32:59.947
you could see us, you know, you could tell we've been doing this for a while.

00:33:00.727 --> 00:33:04.387
So we have a little bit of experience in the classroom between the three of

00:33:04.387 --> 00:33:06.787
us. Joe, what year is this for you? If you don't mind me. 20.

00:33:07.947 --> 00:33:13.687
This is 20. So this is year 20. So between the two of us, we have over 60 years

00:33:13.687 --> 00:33:16.827
of a teaching experience. What about me? Close to seven.

00:33:18.127 --> 00:33:21.047
I'm between the three. Did I say the two of us? No, I said the three of us.

00:33:21.147 --> 00:33:25.407
Did I say the two of us? I misspoke. I meant to say the three of us.

00:33:25.707 --> 00:33:30.907
But if you do the math, my math was correct because it's over 60 years.

00:33:32.107 --> 00:33:36.567
30, 40. Okay. I thought you just told me you taught for 40 years.

00:33:36.667 --> 00:33:37.587
I was like, you look phenomenal.

00:33:37.887 --> 00:33:41.327
I do, right? I look phenomenal. You were after 40 years in the classroom.

00:33:41.507 --> 00:33:43.107
This is unbelievable. I was talking. You still have all your hair.

00:33:44.067 --> 00:33:46.487
Today in class, I'm talking about the Magna Carta. I was like,

00:33:46.587 --> 00:33:49.207
it was written in, I always say this. I'm like, it was written in 1215.

00:33:49.287 --> 00:33:51.187
No, I was not alive during that time.

00:33:51.307 --> 00:33:55.347
I always say something ridiculous like that. It's actually more like 70, but.

00:33:56.045 --> 00:34:02.145
It is more like 70. I don't really math. So it's 27 for me and it's 25 for you,

00:34:02.205 --> 00:34:04.765
Jane, right? Yeah. So it's closer to 70. Okay.

00:34:06.005 --> 00:34:10.285
But yeah, I'd be interested to hear what some of your conversations were with

00:34:10.285 --> 00:34:15.585
Senator Booker about the state of our profession and how we can attract.

00:34:17.585 --> 00:34:20.865
Qualified candidates to this job. It's something that we talk about often.

00:34:21.665 --> 00:34:26.405
I'd love to hear if If you're able to share what some of those conversations

00:34:26.405 --> 00:34:30.425
might have looked like or what you guys talked about, or even what other teachers

00:34:30.425 --> 00:34:33.405
across that, you know, that little cohort that you're talking about,

00:34:33.705 --> 00:34:37.425
what is everybody talking about, about how we can make this profession more

00:34:37.425 --> 00:34:39.185
long-term sustainable?

00:34:40.148 --> 00:34:44.208
I mean, I took a more practical lens when I met him. You have to remember when I met him, it was 2024.

00:34:44.308 --> 00:34:49.908
So we were just about to go into this election and everything in Congress is

00:34:49.908 --> 00:34:54.368
just on pause as everyone's waiting to see what exactly is going to happen in November.

00:34:54.528 --> 00:34:56.868
So you have to kind of be practical, I think, in those relationships.

00:34:56.868 --> 00:35:00.708
So a lot of what we talked about was just trying to get across to him,

00:35:00.828 --> 00:35:04.568
you know, the, the value of teacher voice in this process.

00:35:04.968 --> 00:35:08.568
That's so much of what happens, especially at a federal level is so top down.

00:35:08.568 --> 00:35:11.868
And so, and this is really something that I'm passionate about in New Jersey.

00:35:12.028 --> 00:35:15.448
I'm passionate about this is just giving teachers a seat at the table.

00:35:15.548 --> 00:35:18.788
Like, I feel like we have so many, you know, experts or so many people got there.

00:35:18.828 --> 00:35:22.528
And again, I'm, I'm never taken away from the value of educated opinions in

00:35:22.528 --> 00:35:26.748
here, but you really need both a top down lens and a bottom up lens.

00:35:26.868 --> 00:35:30.788
Right. And we all see the ground view of where these policies impact kids,

00:35:30.908 --> 00:35:33.428
of how these things impact our classrooms, of how they go forward.

00:35:33.568 --> 00:35:36.488
And even like well-intentioned things, right. To go through there.

00:35:36.608 --> 00:35:40.168
Like, you know, teachers should know about bloodborne pathogens has turned into

00:35:40.168 --> 00:35:44.988
a nightmarish scenario for, you know, teachers across the country of going through

00:35:44.988 --> 00:35:48.408
these horrible, you know, trainings when we could be doing other stuff every

00:35:48.408 --> 00:35:50.228
single year and doing the, you know what I mean?

00:35:50.228 --> 00:35:54.808
And so I think like the impact of that stuff on us gets lost in the sauce a lot of ways.

00:35:55.308 --> 00:35:58.548
In terms of like big recruitment and retention, like obviously I've got a lot

00:35:58.548 --> 00:36:01.608
of ideas in terms of, you know, money and, and, you know, things,

00:36:01.728 --> 00:36:03.728
incentives and things like that, that we could talk about.

00:36:03.868 --> 00:36:07.768
But the practical reality on the ground of 2024 was that none of that was going

00:36:07.768 --> 00:36:09.648
to happen, right? We're sitting in the middle of this election.

00:36:09.688 --> 00:36:13.168
So I felt like the best thing that I could do was kind of relate my experience,

00:36:13.348 --> 00:36:16.128
talk to him about the mental health crisis that I see with my kids,

00:36:16.408 --> 00:36:19.548
talk to him about the things that we're seeing at the ground level that I want

00:36:19.548 --> 00:36:21.668
to make sure are getting across there.

00:36:21.848 --> 00:36:26.448
And hopefully, you know, if Washington ever figures things out,

00:36:26.548 --> 00:36:27.588
which I'm like hearing this.

00:36:28.175 --> 00:36:32.995
Sentence in my own head as I spit out, but hopefully one day when we actually

00:36:32.995 --> 00:36:37.575
get back to doing the people's business in Washington, that we could actually

00:36:37.575 --> 00:36:40.655
have a seat at the table and talk about some of those collective things.

00:36:40.775 --> 00:36:45.595
I mean, I think a lot more has been a focus in the state in terms of trying

00:36:45.595 --> 00:36:48.395
to get teacher voices at every level of this.

00:36:48.515 --> 00:36:53.455
So one of my great successes as teacher of the year was pitching to the commissioner of education.

00:36:54.263 --> 00:36:57.963
That he should sit down and talk with teachers from across the state.

00:36:58.323 --> 00:37:01.503
Um, and this is something like, I give him a lot of credit. He was meeting with the NJA.

00:37:01.723 --> 00:37:05.083
He was hearing from some of those things. Um, but yesterday we sat down with

00:37:05.083 --> 00:37:09.603
teachers from all across New Jersey, um, and just had an open conversation with

00:37:09.603 --> 00:37:12.663
the commissioner of education about the testing rollout about,

00:37:12.963 --> 00:37:17.823
you know, the reality of teaching in, you know, this sort of scenario that goes,

00:37:17.883 --> 00:37:20.903
you know, I mean, like, these are things again, that like, we have to have conversations

00:37:20.903 --> 00:37:23.723
about and we have to talk about because I think, again.

00:37:24.063 --> 00:37:27.923
What the view from 30,000 feet is not the same view as it is.

00:37:28.003 --> 00:37:31.403
And again, like we're in this together.

00:37:31.563 --> 00:37:35.403
You know what I mean? Like we should be collaborating together to make sure

00:37:35.403 --> 00:37:37.983
that our students have the best. And we're not. And we're not.

00:37:38.203 --> 00:37:42.243
But and good. James, go ahead. I'm sorry. Yeah. What is what do you think is

00:37:42.243 --> 00:37:47.743
something that so I know that you have kids because I you're I believe it was

00:37:47.743 --> 00:37:50.903
your daughter when the day that I saw you speak at Cain.

00:37:51.063 --> 00:37:55.583
I was there as a chaperone and I think your child was there with you.

00:37:55.903 --> 00:37:58.443
Yeah, I don't think with you, but like happened to be there the same day.

00:37:58.663 --> 00:38:02.183
I have two daughters. So I got one is a sophomore in high school, pray for me.

00:38:02.423 --> 00:38:05.263
And the other is in sixth grade.

00:38:05.403 --> 00:38:08.163
Okay. So they're both in the Jackson school district. I think it was your younger

00:38:08.163 --> 00:38:10.523
one that was there when I was there with the kids.

00:38:10.623 --> 00:38:17.243
But so, so what do you think is something that as a teacher for such a long

00:38:17.243 --> 00:38:19.983
time, way before you became a parent, right?

00:38:20.163 --> 00:38:25.283
What is something that happened in the classroom or something that is,

00:38:25.443 --> 00:38:28.983
has, has happened to you that informs your parenting decisions?

00:38:29.423 --> 00:38:33.743
So something from your teaching experience that has changed your approach with your own kids?

00:38:35.116 --> 00:38:38.796
I think one of the things that I wrote, and like some of this has come from

00:38:38.796 --> 00:38:40.396
coaching in a lot of ways.

00:38:40.436 --> 00:38:44.056
Like I actually saw a kid who was here over the weekend.

00:38:44.136 --> 00:38:46.396
And I remember the story because I was coaching football and the kid had come

00:38:46.396 --> 00:38:48.216
out. He wanted to play quarterback.

00:38:48.496 --> 00:38:51.476
And I was like, okay, so how much football have you played? And he'd never played

00:38:51.476 --> 00:38:53.636
before in his life. And he was coming in. And I'm like, just so you know,

00:38:53.716 --> 00:38:56.456
like this is the most difficult position ever.

00:38:56.838 --> 00:39:00.998
To play. And like, you're starting from a novice. I just want you to like temper your expectations.

00:39:01.178 --> 00:39:03.318
Like I'm more than happy to work with you here. I'm like, but you know,

00:39:03.398 --> 00:39:05.998
you should always, you know, hope for the best and kind of plan for the worst.

00:39:06.378 --> 00:39:09.938
So what's plan B? Like how are you going to add really no plan B for this?

00:39:10.018 --> 00:39:11.418
And we went through it and it was a struggle.

00:39:11.538 --> 00:39:14.798
Like the kid was struggling all the time. It was really difficult on him.

00:39:14.958 --> 00:39:18.538
I would often see him like kind of breaking down in the locker room and going through this.

00:39:18.678 --> 00:39:21.978
And eventually, you know, I talked to him after practice and I'm like,

00:39:22.038 --> 00:39:24.658
you know, like how are things going? You know, what do you think about this?

00:39:25.178 --> 00:39:28.118
And he basically told me like he wanted to be in the band.

00:39:28.898 --> 00:39:32.558
Like that was what he wanted to do. He had wanted to be in the band and he felt

00:39:32.558 --> 00:39:35.718
a lot of pressure from his father to be a quarterback.

00:39:35.958 --> 00:39:38.838
His dad had been a quarterback in high school and wanted him to be a quarterback

00:39:38.838 --> 00:39:42.218
and was really pushing him to do it. And it wasn't working out. It felt like he was in.

00:39:42.758 --> 00:39:45.678
And I was like, all right, well, we got to talk here. You know what I mean? Cause I know,

00:39:45.798 --> 00:39:49.958
I guess like my, my rote football coach answer is supposed to be like, you know,

00:39:50.058 --> 00:39:52.858
never work with and stick it out and go through these sort of things but

00:39:52.858 --> 00:39:55.818
like you could see that this kid was struggling so i called dad to

00:39:55.818 --> 00:39:58.638
talk to dad just to let him know what i was seeing on the other side

00:39:58.638 --> 00:40:01.478
and dad was completely open to

00:40:01.478 --> 00:40:04.158
him going to the band like didn't mean to put

00:40:04.158 --> 00:40:07.358
these prep but there was like no communication there between the

00:40:07.358 --> 00:40:10.158
two of them because he kind of was happy obviously happy i

00:40:10.158 --> 00:40:13.278
would have been happy too if my kid had decided to go play football and do

00:40:13.278 --> 00:40:16.178
that if i thought he wasn't and he was happy because dad was happy

00:40:16.178 --> 00:40:19.738
and didn't want to go through this you know what I mean so I think for me as

00:40:19.738 --> 00:40:22.398
a parent like the thing I take away from and by the way I saw him at

00:40:22.398 --> 00:40:25.118
a band company he's now you know went to college was in the

00:40:25.118 --> 00:40:27.838
band now runs like you know as part of like a

00:40:27.838 --> 00:40:30.538
drum corps thing that he does around the state to go

00:40:30.538 --> 00:40:33.398
over there because I after I had that conversation I walked him down introduced

00:40:33.398 --> 00:40:36.698
him to the band director got him onto the band did this you know he turned his

00:40:36.698 --> 00:40:40.158
equipment in explained to the team what he was doing and went over there and

00:40:40.158 --> 00:40:43.758
went about his life and like for me in those scenarios like I try to think about

00:40:43.758 --> 00:40:48.938
that with my kids about like detaching my own expectations of like what I want.

00:40:49.475 --> 00:40:52.135
Them to do because, you know, obviously I have a lot of like,

00:40:52.235 --> 00:40:55.135
you know, go to Princeton, be there, go, go to, you know, all these sorts of

00:40:55.135 --> 00:40:56.415
things that I want to drive.

00:40:56.715 --> 00:40:59.635
But like, it has to be about them. It has to be about their passions.

00:40:59.755 --> 00:41:01.575
It has to be about what they're interested in.

00:41:01.835 --> 00:41:06.135
You know, I didn't have going to anime con on my, you know, bingo card for parenthood,

00:41:06.215 --> 00:41:08.695
you know what I mean? But that's like what really excites my daughter.

00:41:08.835 --> 00:41:12.835
And she's right. You know, somebody who did not love reading and those things,

00:41:12.955 --> 00:41:16.375
like when she partnered that with art and now she's creating her own stories

00:41:16.375 --> 00:41:17.435
and doing these sorts of things.

00:41:17.435 --> 00:41:21.875
I think that sort of idea of like, you know, we're all different and that,

00:41:22.035 --> 00:41:27.215
you know, finding that spark, finding that passion and then helping them to kind of go after that.

00:41:27.455 --> 00:41:28.895
That's what I've tried to model

00:41:28.895 --> 00:41:33.255
with my kids. And that's certainly not necessarily the way I was raised.

00:41:33.335 --> 00:41:36.955
I was also in a very rubbed dirt on it kind of household, you know what I mean, to come through this.

00:41:37.695 --> 00:41:41.775
But it's something that I think I picked up from this work where like understanding

00:41:41.775 --> 00:41:46.035
that every kid's not the same and, you know, go be the best trumpet player you can be.

00:41:46.215 --> 00:41:49.335
You know what I mean? Like you're not a disappointment to me or to your teammates

00:41:49.335 --> 00:41:53.155
because you didn't suit the cleats, you know, wrap the cleats up like it's about you.

00:41:53.795 --> 00:41:56.895
So that's, you know, it's a struggle and it's easy to say that.

00:41:57.135 --> 00:41:59.055
And then you see your kids doing things and you're like, oh,

00:41:59.235 --> 00:42:03.615
we're really, you know, that you were doing something else to go through this.

00:42:03.675 --> 00:42:05.255
You know, I wanted my kids to love soccer.

00:42:05.815 --> 00:42:09.295
Didn't quite work out that way. You know, I think you have to kind of let that

00:42:09.295 --> 00:42:13.715
stuff go and understand that and be there to support them and make sure that

00:42:13.715 --> 00:42:16.215
they go through that and keep those lines of communication open.

00:42:16.215 --> 00:42:19.555
I think that's another thing where like, you know, and again,

00:42:19.695 --> 00:42:20.855
I don't fault my parents for this.

00:42:20.955 --> 00:42:24.115
They were very busy and, you know, working tons of hours over the course of

00:42:24.115 --> 00:42:28.135
the week, but I didn't have, you know, like there was no honesty between what

00:42:28.135 --> 00:42:30.595
was happening in my life and what.

00:42:31.092 --> 00:42:33.092
You know, I was saying to them, it was just, I was like, yeah,

00:42:33.172 --> 00:42:34.752
I'm fine. And then go, you know what I mean?

00:42:34.772 --> 00:42:37.792
So I don't want to, yeah, I'm fine conversation with my kids at dinner.

00:42:37.912 --> 00:42:39.952
You know what I mean? I want to sit down. I want to have those things.

00:42:40.072 --> 00:42:42.652
I want to know what's going on in their life. So I think teaching has helped

00:42:42.652 --> 00:42:46.652
me a lot of ways, but I hope as a parent too, I think that's it.

00:42:46.772 --> 00:42:49.552
We'll find out if they're all, uh, you know, in prison later on in life,

00:42:50.012 --> 00:42:51.312
maybe don't listen to this podcast.

00:42:52.012 --> 00:42:55.072
We'll see how that turns out. We'll see how it works. I doubt that that's going

00:42:55.072 --> 00:42:59.452
to happen. Um, and at the same time, We haven't met them yet, Joseph. Oh, yeah.

00:43:01.832 --> 00:43:05.792
We all have some that are, you know, is this the one that's going to the reason

00:43:05.792 --> 00:43:07.032
I have all these gray hairs?

00:43:07.852 --> 00:43:11.212
She's sitting upstairs in my living room. I love her. She's amazing.

00:43:11.412 --> 00:43:13.972
But, you know, same reason. Yeah.

00:43:15.095 --> 00:43:22.235
It's I think that that for me, I think a lot of my interactions with students

00:43:22.235 --> 00:43:25.555
also did change my parenting as I went through my career.

00:43:25.975 --> 00:43:32.275
I remember even on another in another level, like I remember my daughter coming

00:43:32.275 --> 00:43:35.595
home and like doing homework for like first grade. First of all,

00:43:35.695 --> 00:43:37.075
my first grade is doing homework.

00:43:37.375 --> 00:43:41.295
OK, that's the first thing. That's another that's another that's another question for another time.

00:43:41.295 --> 00:43:44.435
Um but yeah so

00:43:44.435 --> 00:43:47.435
she's sitting there she's doing homework and i'm trying to explain to her something

00:43:47.435 --> 00:43:50.495
and i'm not explaining it like her teacher is so therefore

00:43:50.495 --> 00:43:54.115
i am not doing it right and then the tears start and

00:43:54.115 --> 00:43:59.795
the frustration begins and i i think to myself as they got older and i see them

00:43:59.795 --> 00:44:04.035
doing things and look at you know the math that they're doing in the seventh

00:44:04.035 --> 00:44:08.115
and eighth grade which i am not a great math student like i think about the

00:44:08.115 --> 00:44:12.675
kids that go home that are in my classroom that are ELL students that are,

00:44:12.855 --> 00:44:14.855
they don't have anyone at home that can help them.

00:44:15.215 --> 00:44:18.255
We can give them whatever tools we can give them to do it on their own,

00:44:18.375 --> 00:44:22.035
whether it be Google Translate or teaching them different extensions that they can use.

00:44:22.175 --> 00:44:24.315
But like when they're home, they're on their own.

00:44:24.675 --> 00:44:29.635
But at the same time, I don't need to give them stuff that they need to do for homework.

00:44:30.195 --> 00:44:32.655
Like I, if they don't finish something in class, that's one thing.

00:44:32.735 --> 00:44:35.275
If they need extra time, that's one thing. But as far as like giving them a

00:44:35.275 --> 00:44:37.895
homework assignment, They're on an island unto themselves.

00:44:38.215 --> 00:44:42.315
And I just feel like as I went through my career, I backed off more and more.

00:44:42.515 --> 00:44:48.595
And I do more with a homework assignment being like a long range plan for executive

00:44:48.595 --> 00:44:52.055
function, like how these kids can chunk it out, learn how to do something long

00:44:52.055 --> 00:44:54.015
term, teaching them that skill.

00:44:54.395 --> 00:44:56.715
That's more important to me than the work that they're doing.

00:44:57.748 --> 00:45:01.508
Does that make sense? Like that's kind of where I'm at right now in regards

00:45:01.508 --> 00:45:04.948
to like a homework assignment. Like, yeah, we're still talking about it. We're still doing it.

00:45:05.168 --> 00:45:09.308
Use it for background knowledge, but it's not like this end all be all has to be done.

00:45:09.388 --> 00:45:12.708
It's more about, can you manage the time in order to do it?

00:45:12.768 --> 00:45:16.408
Cause I've watched my own children struggle with it and I've changed my perspective

00:45:16.408 --> 00:45:17.428
as I've went through my career.

00:45:17.428 --> 00:45:20.268
So yeah and again i don't disagree with you because i think again

00:45:20.268 --> 00:45:23.668
if you look at the educational research on this like the the benefits

00:45:23.668 --> 00:45:26.928
that come from homework are generally speaking

00:45:26.928 --> 00:45:30.528
not at least in my opinion outmatched by

00:45:30.528 --> 00:45:34.148
the equity issues that homework creates especially when you're talking about

00:45:34.148 --> 00:45:37.128
you know in terms of those grading systems and the things like that like you

00:45:37.128 --> 00:45:41.068
know i grew up in an apartment with you know seven people in a one-bedroom apartment

00:45:41.068 --> 00:45:44.808
so you know me going home and doing my homework was not going to happen in that

00:45:44.808 --> 00:45:48.028
sort of scenario to go through this and you You know, luckily I was,

00:45:48.248 --> 00:45:50.328
you know, had the intelligence to make it up in other places,

00:45:50.328 --> 00:45:54.228
but for kids who really need that assistance, like if you, if this is a vital skill.

00:45:54.750 --> 00:45:57.770
Then you really need to dedicate class time to make sure that those kids are

00:45:57.770 --> 00:46:00.350
getting. I don't, I don't think sending it home with them and expecting them

00:46:00.350 --> 00:46:01.710
to do it on their own is realistic.

00:46:01.970 --> 00:46:05.430
I do hope Joe, like in the, in the positive end of the spectrum over there,

00:46:05.530 --> 00:46:07.870
one thing that was kind of fascinating that came from Casey Cuny,

00:46:08.010 --> 00:46:16.090
who's Florida, uh, is advocating for, uh, AI as tutors for kids to go home and equity, uh, to do this.

00:46:16.250 --> 00:46:18.950
They actually created what they started with the AP program, but they

00:46:18.950 --> 00:46:22.110
created these like specific modules where they trained

00:46:22.110 --> 00:46:24.990
ai on the textbooks on the work on

00:46:24.990 --> 00:46:27.910
the things that they're doing over there and then kids can go home and actually use

00:46:27.910 --> 00:46:30.610
this um as a tutor and the idea is to try to like

00:46:30.610 --> 00:46:34.730
roll this out for kids who need that help of course it doesn't help if you don't

00:46:34.730 --> 00:46:38.110
have access to the internet or you don't have you know a quiet place there to

00:46:38.110 --> 00:46:42.990
do those things inside the house but hopefully maybe maybe rather than you know

00:46:42.990 --> 00:46:46.550
using technology as just a way to for some people to hoard resources maybe we

00:46:46.550 --> 00:46:50.270
could find ways to spread them out a little bit and to give it to other people.

00:46:50.430 --> 00:46:53.690
So maybe there's some hope for optimism there. But I'm with you on that, Mr.

00:46:53.790 --> 00:46:58.230
Vitale. I am not a big homework guy for the most part, unless you're talking

00:46:58.230 --> 00:47:01.850
like an honors level class where you signed, you know, the college level class obviously is that.

00:47:01.950 --> 00:47:04.050
And I'll tell you, you have a lot of good company in this too,

00:47:04.130 --> 00:47:07.530
because this is one of our, we had these like random like shout out conversations

00:47:07.530 --> 00:47:08.710
with the state teachers of the year.

00:47:09.530 --> 00:47:13.250
And none of them, there's, we had 57 of them because they're from like the territories

00:47:13.250 --> 00:47:15.710
that are out there. But this is one of the things that we all agreed on was

00:47:15.710 --> 00:47:16.910
like, we don't assign homework.

00:47:17.510 --> 00:47:22.570
Generally speaking, homework is only for honors level, college level classes to go through that.

00:47:22.650 --> 00:47:25.450
And I know that's not the case. I mean, like I go, my daughter's at a school

00:47:25.450 --> 00:47:28.370
where they like mandate homework, uh, you know what I mean? For them to send

00:47:28.370 --> 00:47:30.530
stuff home for them for like a certain amount of time at night.

00:47:30.650 --> 00:47:34.230
So I, I don't know. We, we do wild stuff in education all over the place,

00:47:34.330 --> 00:47:39.730
unfortunately, that I don't think is really backed up by research or backed up by, you know, impact.

00:47:39.990 --> 00:47:45.410
So, so Joe, I'm going to continue to ask you to go out there and change the world. Uh, so that's.

00:47:46.162 --> 00:47:50.702
It's great that you're championing that cause all by yourself.

00:47:51.442 --> 00:47:53.082
So awesome. Appreciate that.

00:47:54.462 --> 00:47:58.522
So, yeah, Joe, thank you very much for being willing to join us today on our

00:47:58.522 --> 00:48:01.442
conversation and for taking time out of your schedule to talk.

00:48:01.662 --> 00:48:05.582
It was very nice. We didn't even get to solve PD. I know. Exactly. Right.

00:48:05.942 --> 00:48:12.622
We have to have me back at some point. You know, we just we we just love that. We love that.

00:48:13.562 --> 00:48:17.462
Honestly, it's it's a great conversation. And I think that, you know,

00:48:17.542 --> 00:48:19.382
we consider ourselves stakeholders. We do.

00:48:19.502 --> 00:48:22.722
We're like, we're not on the same stage as you, but we feel this is very important

00:48:22.722 --> 00:48:25.122
to keep talking about, about how we're going to make this profession better

00:48:25.122 --> 00:48:29.002
about, you know, how we're going to, uh, service our students better in the

00:48:29.002 --> 00:48:31.622
classroom, things that we can do that are going to make our profession,

00:48:31.622 --> 00:48:33.782
uh, even more profound than it already is.

00:48:34.162 --> 00:48:38.782
Uh, so again, Joe, I appreciate hundreds, hundreds of your ex students out there

00:48:38.782 --> 00:48:41.322
who would disagree with every word that just came out of your mouth to go through

00:48:41.322 --> 00:48:46.162
this or at that. Well, you've impacted hundreds of lives across.

00:48:46.322 --> 00:48:50.062
They don't undersell yourself and go in there. Your impact is amazing and rippling

00:48:50.062 --> 00:48:51.882
out through time out there with the rest of us.

00:48:52.182 --> 00:48:55.182
And Jamie's Jamie's going to say Jamie's going to say, yeah,

00:48:55.322 --> 00:48:59.482
right. Because she knows that I know. I mean, in regards to. Yeah.

00:48:59.762 --> 00:49:02.322
Meaning like, yeah, Joe, you're right. Not yet. Right. Like whatever.

00:49:02.662 --> 00:49:05.962
But Jamie, because I don't speak well about myself in that sense,

00:49:06.102 --> 00:49:09.882
because it it's too boastful. I don't support negative self-talk.

00:49:10.202 --> 00:49:14.122
Yes. She does not support negative self-talk. So, Joe, I appreciate you very

00:49:14.122 --> 00:49:17.262
much and for being with us today. Jamie, I appreciate you, friend.

00:49:17.922 --> 00:49:22.642
Joe's, I appreciate you both. And don't forget, I'm sorry, to Joe,

00:49:22.842 --> 00:49:26.102
our season three is brought to you by our principal sponsor,

00:49:26.582 --> 00:49:27.562
Teacher's Insurance Plan.

00:49:27.762 --> 00:49:30.602
Make sure you check out their website. We've linked it in our episode description.

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00:49:39.282 --> 00:49:43.062
I'm getting better at this. I'm getting better at that. The reading is going better. Okay.

00:49:43.714 --> 00:49:46.174
All right, Joe, thank you again for being with us. We'll see you,

00:49:46.214 --> 00:49:49.854
everybody, next time on the Bouncing Act Podcast. Absolutely. Take care.

00:50:03.177 --> 00:50:07.177
Look for the Balancing Act podcast every week on your favorite podcast platform.

00:50:07.557 --> 00:50:11.457
New episodes drop every Tuesday. Thank you for being a part of our audience.