Learned Helplessness with “The Well Seasoned Teacher”, Melissa Antinoff

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You are listening to The Balancing Act Podcast. Here's your hosts,

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Jamie Wonko and Joe Vitale.

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Hey, wait a minute. We're actually recording. We are. Here we go.

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Hello and welcome to The Balancing Act Podcast. I am Jamie Wonko.

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My microphone, just like me,

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is a little crooked, so I'm going to try to deal. How are you, Mr. Vitale?

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I'm good. We're having one of those, you know, it's the setup day.

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I was a little bit late myself because i could not find the uh the magical box

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i used to hold up my uh to hold up my microphone you know it's like the wizard

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of oz though the glory behind the curtain of course um so yeah uh you know here

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we are in the throes of 2026 in the depths of winter and january you know i hate it.

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I someone today said to me march is worse than january and

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i was like do you want to are we fighting what do you what is

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what's happening yeah i don't i don't agree um so uh yeah well before we get

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into it today hey uh did you know that we have a new uh and not a new our our

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sponsor our presenting sponsor for this season do you want to do our ad read

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as i'm trying to stall because i didn't have it in my notes,

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Season three is brought to you by our presenting sponsor, Teacher's Insurance

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Plan. Check out their website for more information and to get a quote.

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Teacher's Insurance Plan, auto insurance that brings exclusive educator savings

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and exceptional customer care to New Jersey and Pennsylvania educational employees. Yeah.

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Well, speaking of New Jersey, we got a guest out in the wings who I'm very excited to bring on.

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And I think we've had her waiting long enough as we are bantering back and forth

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and trying to find our stuff and keep it together.

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Hey, Melissa, how are you? Hi, everyone. It's so good to have you.

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Thanks a lot for being willing to join us on the Bouncing Act podcast.

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Thanks for being here. Thanks for asking me. Welcome, welcome.

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Some of you may know Melissa as the well-seasoned teacher. Yes.

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And so we follow you on TikTok and Instagram. Are you also on Facebook or are

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those your main platforms?

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I have a professional page on Facebook, Melissa Antonoff, the Well-Seasoned

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Teacher, and I'm also on YouTube, but that's at the Well-Seasoned Teacher.

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Um, I, I will, I will say this before we even jump into it.

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If you are a new teacher or a novice teacher and you are looking for an account

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that can provide you some advice, a little bit of levity, um,

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you know, some, some tips and tricks that you can use for dealing with trouble,

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trouble with administrators or difficulty with classroom management,

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uh, you need to give, uh, Melissa a follow a hundred percent.

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So, and that's one of the things that actually drew me to, to stalk you, uh, on various.

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On various platforms um and oddly

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enough there there we were just a quick story um we were at the new jersey uh

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state convention and we were interviewing a lot of the county teachers of the

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year and you know people are we started following people and then we're scrolling

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through and then all of a sudden i see you in a picture with some of the other

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county teachers and i'm like god,

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gosh darn it i have to i've been trying to get in touch with her for so long

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i gotta find somebody who knows her.

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Because I just really feel that, you know, we all have a lot of dirt on our

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boots from being in the classroom for as long as we have been.

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And I think this is going to be a great conversation. So I'm really looking forward to it. Me too.

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I mean, we just started and we already have two Joe-isms, dirt in the boots

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and in the throes. So let's go for three.

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I think secretly she hates me. She keeps track of these things.

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I asked her to start a podcast and now she just abuses me. What is happening?

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To be fair, that was happening before the podcast. There you go.

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Yes, it was. Yes, it was. Melissa, can you give us a little bit about your background,

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teaching experience, and all things, Melissa?

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Well, I've been teaching since 1993. I started as a kindergarten teacher.

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I've taught general education, kindergarten first, second, third,

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fourth, and seventh. Okay, so everything.

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Okay. Yeah, pretty much everything. And I've done inclusion classes and in-class support classes.

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I'm not a special ed teacher, but I've had a lot of special ed students in my gen ed class.

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And now I teach gifted education grades three to eight pull out and I push in

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and do lessons whole class to grade two.

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To grade two oh great too yep so

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i can start seeing who will be in my program the following year oh oh that's

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interesting yeah so once a month i go into the second grade classes and do lessons

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like today i did one with tan grams it's a lot of fun that's great uh 1993 so that's that's.

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A lot i'm not old i'm well seasoned you're well seasoned yes

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i like that you know like a cast iron skillet

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is that where we're going we've seen

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a lot that skillet on me yeah so so from

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1993 to now where was the gap in the years like when did you not oh i uh took

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off six years after i had my daughter in 2007 and i took a year off after i

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had my son in 2005 so i am in year 27 now instead of 34.

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Okay. Because I took time off to raise kids. Yeah. Good for you.

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That's the best job. It was good. It was good.

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Yeah. So one recently, uh, after we had talked, um,

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you know, about having you on the show and coming up with a date,

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uh, one of your posts came up, you were sitting in your car and you were talking

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about, uh, about how we have classrooms full of kids with learned helplessness.

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So we, Jamie and I, this is something that we have been talking about.

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Um, and I just want to get your take on it too.

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Um, I don't know if there's necessarily a way to, so basically fix it, Melissa.

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Uh, I don't know if there's a way to, but I'm just, you know, I think,

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What is good about conversations like this is it allows Jamie and myself and

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our listeners to understand, like, hey, you're not the only one that's seeing

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these things happening in the classroom.

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It's all of us and in all grades. I've heard from teachers in pre-K and I've

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heard from teachers who teach seniors that there's so much learned helplessness.

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And now I'm getting college professors saying that they're using some of the

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things that I talk about in college. Can you imagine?

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Yeah. Yeah, I I've talked about this often. I do some executive function tutoring

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in the company for educational connections. We've had some people from the company on the show.

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We've also talked about like how on a on a daily basis, especially right now

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that we're in, we're at a time where it's a new year and parents are in certain

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states are transitioning to the second semester.

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I got one tonight, right before here, with college students that are looking

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for executive function tutoring because they are having trouble managing the

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workload, figuring out what to do, what to prioritize, how to chunk out tasks.

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It is a skill that they do not have.

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Then we go down to my son, who's currently in a class at a high school called Tomorrow's Teachers.

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And right before the break, he started observing some of the classes.

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And he had to go in and he wound up like the kids were making gingerbread houses.

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And he was just astounded at the fact that they had so much trouble building

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a gingerbread house. Which, by the way, gingerbread houses are not easy to build.

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But...

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It was very interesting to hear him like, yeah, they like, you know,

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couldn't cut this open. And I was doing that.

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I was cleaning this up. And I was like, yeah, because they can't.

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You think they can't. I'm going to give that to him specifically because I so

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I teach eighth grade and I do lots and lots of and I do it on purpose,

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especially with scissors.

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Because I've noticed in the last, you know, 10 years, maybe a little bit less, even they can't cut.

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And so, and the stamina and the, just the hand-eye coordination and what type

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of scissor or how to hold the scissor.

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And, you know, and this really is not like, oh, we missed this child needing

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occupational therapy or, oh, this child should have been identified for special education.

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No this is your average like they

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have no learning challenges whatsoever they just

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didn't do enough of those basic kind of

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things and so what sometimes looks like these

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really simple sort of teachers pay teachers things sometimes all

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print out it's like no no we all have to learn

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and know how to do these things so so it's really

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cool that joey could pick that out and notice and say also because

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they just have like uh am i

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done you know can we be done is this

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over if you guys

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are i hope you're watching i hope you're

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watching on one of the video feeds because melissa just like slugged and i don't

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know if she was impersonating a student or if she was just like god it was both

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but that's what we get and i i have some theories as to why i would love to

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throw it And tell me what you think.

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So I definitely also started seeing a change about 10 years ago. But I feel like...

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Once No Child Left Behind came out and testing became so important.

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When I first started teaching in the early 90s, I was teaching full day kindergarten,

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25 kids, no aid in the Title I district.

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And I am all about project-based learning.

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That's all I do now. That's all I did in kindergarten, plus teaching them the

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alphabet and numbers and everything.

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And we did all of that cutting and everything.

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And then once testing became

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so important they started taking all of that away and

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they started adding so many more academics to earlier grades than when we were

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little when i started teaching third grade about 13 years ago i couldn't believe

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what i was teaching it was stuff that i had done in fifth grade.

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And now, because the standardized tests are on computers, which are so developmentally

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inappropriate for third graders and fourth graders, they don't have the stamina to type.

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And we all learn better by handwriting. I hand wrote notes today.

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I think that you're losing a lot. And my other idea is that kids have been given

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iPads and phones from babyhood and all they know is this.

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And this is instant gratification and you're not going to get that in school.

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And so you don't need any stamina for this. You don't like what you're watching, just keep swiping.

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And so I just saw a video yesterday.

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I wish I could remember it because I'd love to share it with you. It was something about.

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It used to be 50% of the parents read to their kids, and now teachers are finding

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a third of the parents read to their kids.

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So kids aren't coming in with libraries at home, or they're not being taken

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to the library, and they don't know how to sit for a story, much less any academics.

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And then they're not being taught all these fine motor skills,

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like cutting and build, anything, you know? So, and we've seen a huge change in every grade.

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Yeah. One of the things we will be talking about, kind of plug our show,

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is I think later in March, we have like a little theme that we're going to do

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for March, Tech Reset, where we're going to be talking to a bunch of different

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people about, you know, some of the different, I want to call them movements

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across the country about,

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we did try to reach out and get somebody from Australia

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because we know that Australia's had a law regarding

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social media access for 16 and under

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oh i did hear that yeah they completely banned it um so

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and it's also interesting when i talk to my own because i teach

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civics and i talk to my own students about that and some students were like

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yeah that wouldn't be a bad idea because like a lot of the stuff that's on there

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like even the kids are like a lot of stuff that's on there is like not really

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appropriate for us to be watching like they know but they still watch it anyway

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and these elementary kids are on tiktok tiktok is not for kids under 18.

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You know, and YouTube, the things that the language and the things that they know.

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Yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, and that's all that we're, and we're going to be talking

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to teachers that are working in districts now that are completely pulling back,

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uh, collecting the Chromebooks, going back to carts and saying,

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we're going to go back because handwriting is suffering, uh, things like that.

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I've also instituted, um, I like to call it the Mrs.

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Stefanik rule, who was my daughter's

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kindergarten teacher. And she used to say, do it nice or do it twice.

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So we adopted that at our house. I love it.

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And I told that to my students. I was like, look, if you give me an assignment

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that we do a short amount of writing on, and it looks like you did it while

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on a roller coaster with a crayon on an Applebee's napkin,

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I am going to ask you to redo that assignment and put the effort in.

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And some kids look at me already and have had to do it.

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And they're like, oh, well, I'm like, well, yeah, I can't read it.

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If I can't read it, I can't grade it. Correct.

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So, yeah, it's, anyway, it's those types of things we're going to be talking about.

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It's conversations like this that I think are going to help.

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But the things that you're seeing, the influx of devices, the technology in

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students' hands, the iPads, you know, we don't know what effect that's going

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to have on brain development for kids moving forward because there is no study on it.

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No, but I swear it's rewiring them.

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Oh, yeah. It is. But, Melissa, to your point, which I find so incredible,

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if we can separate just the war on the devices, right? Because that is a whole thing.

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And to me, it's, you know, if it's at home, just as bad as it is in school,

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that everybody just wants to blame school because it's easier than having to parent.

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Or, you know, can you be in a restaurant with your children and they can't sit

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at a restaurant without being on a device? Like, don't get me started.

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Yeah, it's crazy to me. So the, and no one's speaking to them.

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So they're not acquiring language. They're not hearing it. They don't,

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they're not picking up on things that are happening in their outside environment,

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you know, the things around them, but.

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What you said about, you know, the testing is so powerful because my kindergarten experience, hey, Mrs.

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Bresher, wherever you are, I had full day kindergarten, which was,

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you know, 1984, which was, yes, we had, I, when I was a kid,

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we lived in Union, New Jersey.

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And we had, shout out to Union, because in the early 80s, they had free public

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half day preschool and full-day kindergarten. It's amazing.

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That's a unicorn. It really, I mean, I didn't, you know, when you're growing

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up, you don't know any different.

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You think everybody's doing the same thing as you. And now, you know,

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as a teacher, my own children did not have full-day kindergarten.

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No, mine didn't either. So it's, you know, that drove me nuts.

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But anyway, so the idea of playing, so one of my twins had a teacher who,

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it was like just her motto, play is a child's workplace.

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It is. And it is so important to do that and to have that.

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And so when we're looking at a first grader and saying, like,

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can you write a paper? It's like, no.

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So there were certain times, too, as they got a little bit older where they

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would, oh, we're doing that again.

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And it was sort of like, yeah, you know what? Like, you're sick of it.

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And that part, you know, it almost became like, you're tired of that.

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Let's try something else to, we're just not going to do it.

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Like, there was this, I don't want to. So I, what you said, that,

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that really struck a chord with me, because it is just so true.

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They, they took away some of those building blocks and foundational,

00:16:19.328 --> 00:16:23.288
you know, items for them when they were little, and they just never...

00:16:23.842 --> 00:16:27.882
Put them back. And they also take away recess time. Yes.

00:16:28.282 --> 00:16:31.842
Right. I had recess in seventh and eighth grade and in New Jersey,

00:16:31.842 --> 00:16:34.782
I think it's up to fifth grade. Um, correct.

00:16:35.202 --> 00:16:39.782
And so, and because kids are swiping, swiping, they're not outside playing.

00:16:39.942 --> 00:16:42.362
Remember we would stay outside till the sun went down.

00:16:42.542 --> 00:16:45.582
Right. And we had to learn conflict resolution skills.

00:16:45.842 --> 00:16:51.682
And, and now kids don't know how to get along at recess even more than when,

00:16:51.682 --> 00:16:54.042
than just regular, like when we were little.

00:16:54.222 --> 00:16:57.642
I don't know if they still do it, but I know for a time our district was having

00:16:57.642 --> 00:17:02.242
kids like once a week do like SEL lessons out of a workbook in gym class.

00:17:02.422 --> 00:17:05.682
Like they would be, they'd be in the gym, like sitting on the floor,

00:17:05.902 --> 00:17:07.762
working out of a workbook. And I'm like...

00:17:08.800 --> 00:17:12.760
Are you kidding me? Like that's the one time where these kids need to be like

00:17:12.760 --> 00:17:16.100
running around, playing a fun game, having a good time.

00:17:16.480 --> 00:17:19.780
Like they should be doing that. They absolutely should be doing that.

00:17:19.940 --> 00:17:23.400
But they don't want to take away any academic time for the classroom teacher

00:17:23.400 --> 00:17:27.340
to do it, which is who should be doing it because we build the community.

00:17:27.820 --> 00:17:31.440
Yes. Because we shouldn't take time away from math and reading and writing.

00:17:31.720 --> 00:17:34.260
We've talked about, you know, some of the root causes, Right.

00:17:34.360 --> 00:17:38.500
But but and I'll ask you this, right, because you're in the earlier grades, Melissa.

00:17:38.740 --> 00:17:42.360
So if you're a new teacher, a novice teacher in the classroom,

00:17:42.440 --> 00:17:45.800
I think of my goddaughter who's in her, I think, second year teaching.

00:17:46.020 --> 00:17:49.320
I want to say it's third grade in in Florida.

00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:54.460
Like if she sees like her students exhibiting the symptoms of learned helplessness,

00:17:54.540 --> 00:17:59.000
what might be some strategies that she could put in place to help you with that?

00:17:59.260 --> 00:18:03.560
You have to give them tools that they can go to instead of you.

00:18:04.020 --> 00:18:09.260
So I made this for a video that I made earlier. So I rescued it from the recycling

00:18:09.260 --> 00:18:11.160
to show you. So I make anchor charts.

00:18:11.540 --> 00:18:18.140
So for, you know, third grade, fifth grade and under, add some pictures to get their interest.

00:18:18.400 --> 00:18:21.700
I will often use different colors, but I made this really fast.

00:18:22.300 --> 00:18:27.740
For upper grades, I would just put it up on the board. These are the steps I want you to take.

00:18:28.160 --> 00:18:31.060
You don't know what to do. Did you look at the board? You know,

00:18:31.160 --> 00:18:35.300
they never use the anchor charts we use for anything. Start getting them to

00:18:35.300 --> 00:18:38.040
use what you've put. You don't know what to write?

00:18:38.540 --> 00:18:41.860
Look at the anchor chart I put up there. What did I say we were doing?

00:18:42.846 --> 00:18:47.726
Um, you know, the whole ask three before me, but then they just go ask someone

00:18:47.726 --> 00:18:49.646
and that someone tells them the answer.

00:18:49.726 --> 00:18:54.726
And I want them to learn how to figure it out because life is full of problems.

00:18:54.726 --> 00:18:58.146
We have to learn how to solve them. We have to find those tools.

00:18:58.866 --> 00:19:03.846
So I have things like that. I, I, you know, I direct them. I don't give them the answer.

00:19:04.466 --> 00:19:09.706
And I teach, teach every routine over and over and over and over and over until they get it.

00:19:10.266 --> 00:19:13.986
Yeah. They have to know what to do. We've also went back to,

00:19:14.326 --> 00:19:16.906
you know, since we're starting, it's after a break.

00:19:17.146 --> 00:19:21.326
It's it was December, which is, you know, depending on what grade you're teaching,

00:19:21.446 --> 00:19:22.366
the fifth circle of hell.

00:19:22.966 --> 00:19:27.086
And, you know, it's the holidays and kids are crazy. And now you're back and

00:19:27.086 --> 00:19:29.206
you're trying to get you're trying to redo that routine.

00:19:30.446 --> 00:19:33.066
You know, what are some suggestions you might have, you know,

00:19:33.146 --> 00:19:38.166
to refresh that routine to make sure that students are meeting your expectations?

00:19:38.966 --> 00:19:43.306
Well, one class in particular of middle schoolers that I have,

00:19:43.746 --> 00:19:48.606
our first day back yesterday, I said, okay, just so you remember,

00:19:48.866 --> 00:19:54.586
the expectation is when I'm reading aloud, you are not touching each other.

00:19:54.706 --> 00:19:58.086
You're not playing with the caddy of materials. I said to them exactly what

00:19:58.086 --> 00:19:58.946
they're supposed to be doing.

00:19:59.146 --> 00:20:02.506
They like me to put the book under the document projector. So I said,

00:20:02.646 --> 00:20:05.766
your whole body is actively listening to that screen.

00:20:07.026 --> 00:20:11.186
And then they had trouble working together so I sat down with them and I said

00:20:11.186 --> 00:20:16.406
tell me what my expectation is when you are working on a project and one kid

00:20:16.406 --> 00:20:19.026
could tell me but the other four couldn't and I said,

00:20:19.810 --> 00:20:24.110
I made them tell me and I said, I'm going to walk away and I'm going to work with another group.

00:20:24.190 --> 00:20:28.010
If I have to come back here, then I'm calling your parents because their parents

00:20:28.010 --> 00:20:30.090
will back me up. I'm teaching gifted.

00:20:30.370 --> 00:20:33.230
The parents, for the most part, back me up.

00:20:34.430 --> 00:20:35.850
Otherwise, they would get a different

00:20:35.850 --> 00:20:39.470
consequence if calling your parent doesn't work. But you have to.

00:20:39.670 --> 00:20:43.190
It's almost like day one. You have to reteach those expectations.

00:20:44.110 --> 00:20:47.870
Yeah. Actually, today I was playing whack-a-mole where it was like,

00:20:47.950 --> 00:20:51.470
hey, I even said it out loud. I was like, you guys ever go to the carnival? You play whack-a-ball.

00:20:51.670 --> 00:20:54.570
I was like, I'm like, hey, could you, you're taking a test. Stop talking.

00:20:54.770 --> 00:20:57.770
You're, you're doing it. Please sit down. Like I, I have a, I have a,

00:20:57.830 --> 00:21:01.910
I have a class that has high energy and there's a lot of my energy goes to that.

00:21:02.050 --> 00:21:06.190
And I also, one strategy that I've been doing is I, I kind of like,

00:21:06.370 --> 00:21:07.970
especially cause it's middle school.

00:21:08.230 --> 00:21:11.130
I kind of told them like, Hey, like my morning classes, like,

00:21:11.650 --> 00:21:15.330
you know, they all got a 10 out of 10 for, you know, following directions,

00:21:15.490 --> 00:21:18.370
completing the assignment. And because they did that, they were able to start

00:21:18.370 --> 00:21:20.390
their homework and had a little bit less to do tonight.

00:21:20.770 --> 00:21:25.110
So if you guys want the same, like, you know, maybe you'll live up to their

00:21:25.110 --> 00:21:27.750
expectations. Let's see who can do it best. That's right.

00:21:28.150 --> 00:21:31.830
Yeah. It's just good to make them compete against one another in a little way.

00:21:31.970 --> 00:21:35.130
That works for that. Healthy competition. Sure. Yeah.

00:21:35.710 --> 00:21:40.410
And I think the idea of the, especially because we're in middle school and there

00:21:40.410 --> 00:21:46.610
are six periods and we have an A day and a B day. So a couple of those classes change every other day.

00:21:46.810 --> 00:21:53.690
So I think the idea of when they come in, even sometimes it really does feel

00:21:53.690 --> 00:21:56.610
like every single day. You might have to.

00:21:57.010 --> 00:22:02.070
We're, hi, okay, you know, there's that because it's see me,

00:22:02.350 --> 00:22:04.810
see us, see what, you know, because they're.

00:22:05.793 --> 00:22:10.033
So dysregulated. So dysregulated. And we, I mean, I have been a fan of it.

00:22:10.133 --> 00:22:13.713
This year in school, we have a different music playing every day.

00:22:14.133 --> 00:22:18.913
And so what's very, very fascinating to me, and I'm not really a data person,

00:22:18.953 --> 00:22:24.213
but I'd love to study the behavior of the children in our school based on what the music is like.

00:22:24.393 --> 00:22:29.453
Because today was Red Hot Chili Peppers, and there was like a different,

00:22:29.793 --> 00:22:33.573
I don't know, I don't know if you've, right? There's a different energy to some of the music.

00:22:33.633 --> 00:22:37.153
And maybe that's just me because some of it I can't. I don't like it.

00:22:37.593 --> 00:22:40.573
But when they're walking and the vibe and the whole thing.

00:22:41.273 --> 00:22:44.353
But even today, they were coming in doing some projects.

00:22:44.733 --> 00:22:46.913
And, you know, that kind of rush of like, we're just going to.

00:22:46.993 --> 00:22:48.453
We have so many things we need to ask you.

00:22:48.513 --> 00:22:52.873
And we need all of your attention. And I found myself dysregulated as a,

00:22:52.873 --> 00:22:54.253
you know, perimenopausal woman.

00:22:54.453 --> 00:23:00.773
I was like, and the California and the music. And I was like, everybody.

00:23:01.593 --> 00:23:04.993
We're going to wait until the music is over.

00:23:06.873 --> 00:23:11.613
Mrs. Monkel cannot answer one more question. James, James, a few,

00:23:11.753 --> 00:23:13.553
a few, I don't know if you remember this a few months ago.

00:23:13.693 --> 00:23:16.993
I was in your room. I may have been looking at something on your computer or

00:23:16.993 --> 00:23:19.073
stopped in to say hello or whatever it was.

00:23:19.153 --> 00:23:22.593
But I remember your students were doing something and a couple of kids kept coming up to you.

00:23:22.733 --> 00:23:25.573
And you, I don't know if you could speak to this, but I really...

00:23:26.112 --> 00:23:29.952
I liked what you said to the students. And I realize I'm putting you on the spot.

00:23:30.072 --> 00:23:32.212
You were like, if you're going to do, like, you could look it up.

00:23:32.352 --> 00:23:34.292
You could do this. You could do that. And you know what?

00:23:34.812 --> 00:23:42.352
If you don't find the answer, then you just found eight ways not to find the answer.

00:23:42.652 --> 00:23:47.432
So whatever, I can't remember exactly what you said, but I just remember like,

00:23:47.652 --> 00:23:50.532
oh, that was really good. I got to remember that. And of course, I forgot.

00:23:50.872 --> 00:23:54.652
I mean, I don't know how much of what I say anyone listens to.

00:23:54.832 --> 00:23:58.332
So thank you. i listen to it i often

00:23:58.332 --> 00:24:00.992
use the phrase you're on the right street you're just not at

00:24:00.992 --> 00:24:03.712
the right house and you know and so

00:24:03.712 --> 00:24:07.072
i'll say to them like you're close you're just not but the the

00:24:07.072 --> 00:24:12.112
idea of and you mentioned libraries before so i'm and we we got rid of our libraries

00:24:12.112 --> 00:24:15.532
in our school district years ago we don't have a single library and they're

00:24:15.532 --> 00:24:19.592
gone and you can see which rooms you can sort of do a hunt in the different

00:24:19.592 --> 00:24:23.172
buildings you can see like our current art room used to be the library you can

00:24:23.172 --> 00:24:25.252
kind of tell by some of the furniture that's left.

00:24:25.672 --> 00:24:30.632
And one of the things that really, and I will mention this to the kids sometimes,

00:24:30.752 --> 00:24:34.812
is we used to do this huge research project in sixth grade language arts.

00:24:35.212 --> 00:24:38.572
And the kids had so many things.

00:24:38.832 --> 00:24:45.432
And especially if you, you know, if you run into a wall, you got to turn around.

00:24:45.632 --> 00:24:48.232
You can't just keep banging your head into the wall. You're going to die without

00:24:48.232 --> 00:24:52.132
the cheese or whatever that thing is, right? So turn around, and find another way.

00:24:52.372 --> 00:24:57.252
It may not be what you intended, but you're still giving yourself a learning opportunity.

00:24:57.772 --> 00:25:00.652
Whereas now I think a lot of them really do just sit down.

00:25:01.152 --> 00:25:06.952
Yeah. There's no productive struggle. Right. And part of that for me, yes, that is.

00:25:07.172 --> 00:25:10.292
Part of that for me, I'll always pine for the library because the skills that

00:25:10.292 --> 00:25:14.192
they got in what is your broad topic, how do you make it narrow,

00:25:14.192 --> 00:25:20.652
How do you figure, you know, just even looking for, looking for things that are not, you know.

00:25:21.827 --> 00:25:25.527
On a screen, you know, that obviously I know that's not coming back,

00:25:25.687 --> 00:25:31.207
but, um, the skills involved in that somehow need, I think need to be brought

00:25:31.207 --> 00:25:36.727
back in some way. They do, especially for research. You need a library for that. Yes. Yeah.

00:25:37.307 --> 00:25:41.807
So not to, not to change gears, but one of the other things I think that you

00:25:41.807 --> 00:25:44.787
are, I'm going to say an expert at is you do,

00:25:44.967 --> 00:25:50.547
you do put a lot of content out there about how teachers who maybe have difficult

00:25:50.547 --> 00:25:55.267
administrators can broach those conversations.

00:25:55.627 --> 00:26:03.507
Okay. So what do you think are some of the most common admin related challenges

00:26:03.507 --> 00:26:07.007
that new teachers face and why might they be so overwhelming?

00:26:07.947 --> 00:26:10.847
Well, I was thinking about this the other day.

00:26:10.987 --> 00:26:14.627
And one of the things that's really hard as a new teacher is that you are just

00:26:14.627 --> 00:26:18.127
thrown into a classroom and expected to do it all, to manage it,

00:26:18.287 --> 00:26:23.007
to deliver the content, to grade the papers, to make small groups.

00:26:23.027 --> 00:26:24.067
How do you make small groups?

00:26:24.167 --> 00:26:26.547
How do you collect data to do all the things?

00:26:26.767 --> 00:26:32.147
And so many admin forget what it's like to be a new teacher.

00:26:33.367 --> 00:26:39.567
So sometimes they give vague feedback, like just be more engaging, but what does that mean?

00:26:39.827 --> 00:26:42.567
Or they might give conflicting messages make sure

00:26:42.567 --> 00:26:48.807
you build relationships but but don't smile until december we've all we've all

00:26:48.807 --> 00:26:52.447
that was that was a big one when i came into the class yeah which i don't believe

00:26:52.447 --> 00:26:56.727
in but i mean i'm really consistent and i'm really tough but i laugh a lot i

00:26:56.727 --> 00:27:00.487
think that you have to teach them how to act right um.

00:27:01.779 --> 00:27:06.319
I am, I'm an anxious, sensitive person. And I was one of those,

00:27:06.419 --> 00:27:09.819
I'm looking at the note, I made notes because I knew there were things I wanted to say.

00:27:10.479 --> 00:27:15.039
New teachers assume that when an administrator just does a quick walkthrough,

00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:19.479
that it defines them as a teacher at that moment when it's just a snapshot.

00:27:20.179 --> 00:27:26.459
Right. And, and many people, especially new teachers,

00:27:26.759 --> 00:27:30.339
if they are told things feel like they have to fix

00:27:30.339 --> 00:27:33.339
everything at once and it's that's not possible along with

00:27:33.339 --> 00:27:41.159
your job um let me see sometimes administrators give feedback that is looking

00:27:41.159 --> 00:27:47.139
for teachers to be compliant and that doesn't work in this job like for example

00:27:47.139 --> 00:27:51.999
yeah like like you have to post your objectives. I hate that.

00:27:52.479 --> 00:28:00.099
Why is that so important? Why do you have to follow specific wording or specific pacing guide?

00:28:00.299 --> 00:28:06.419
Why does it matter if you are not on the same lesson as the teacher next to

00:28:06.419 --> 00:28:09.719
you because you noticed your students didn't get the lesson the day before,

00:28:09.979 --> 00:28:12.559
so you're reteaching it in yet another way.

00:28:13.999 --> 00:28:19.879
I think that new teachers often don't feel trusted as the educators they are,

00:28:19.919 --> 00:28:23.339
and they want the chance to figure out how to be that educator.

00:28:23.499 --> 00:28:27.179
And it takes several years, and I think this is one of the reasons we're seeing

00:28:27.179 --> 00:28:29.379
a lot of teachers leave in the first five years.

00:28:30.199 --> 00:28:36.019
And the last thing I was thinking about is that I'm lucky to have really positive

00:28:36.019 --> 00:28:38.459
admins right now, but I didn't always.

00:28:39.019 --> 00:28:44.019
And this is the kind of job where we give warm fuzzies to our students all the time.

00:28:44.039 --> 00:28:48.499
But if an admin isn't doing that for their teachers, especially new ones,

00:28:48.579 --> 00:28:52.479
and you don't know what you're doing right, then you're going to think everything you're doing is wrong.

00:28:54.253 --> 00:28:57.773
I think that can catch up with even the most well-seasoned teacher.

00:28:58.173 --> 00:29:05.033
Oh, 100%. We very rarely hear things that we're doing well.

00:29:06.293 --> 00:29:11.333
That 100% caught up with me. I mean, I used to do things at other schools where

00:29:11.333 --> 00:29:15.853
like a thank you would have went along.

00:29:16.033 --> 00:29:19.713
Like, hey, thanks a lot for taking the time to do that. And I make sure,

00:29:19.733 --> 00:29:28.373
like, I make sure to overly thank people, even if it's students.

00:29:28.473 --> 00:29:31.773
Like, hey, thanks a lot for taking the time to do that today. I appreciate it.

00:29:32.013 --> 00:29:36.633
Me too. You know, I make sure that they know that because I know how I feel when I didn't get it.

00:29:36.733 --> 00:29:39.973
Like, some of the things that I did, like, they're not earth-changing things,

00:29:40.033 --> 00:29:42.453
but they were important. And they were important to me. They were important

00:29:42.453 --> 00:29:45.893
to our school community. And it would be nice just to be like, hey, you know what?

00:29:45.973 --> 00:29:49.173
Thanks a lot for taking the time to do that. These are things that like,

00:29:49.333 --> 00:29:50.893
wasn't getting paid for it.

00:29:51.713 --> 00:29:56.073
I was doing these things. I thought it was important. And it should be recognized.

00:29:56.613 --> 00:29:59.613
Yeah. Yeah. That, that's always challenging. And I always said to myself,

00:29:59.753 --> 00:30:03.293
like if I ever, and I'm not on that side of the fence, if I ever became an administrator

00:30:03.293 --> 00:30:07.233
or gotten to that kind of position, that that's how I was going to conduct myself.

00:30:07.353 --> 00:30:09.533
It's going to make sure that people knew like, Hey, thanks a lot for,

00:30:09.793 --> 00:30:11.273
you know, I even do that now.

00:30:11.333 --> 00:30:16.873
Like, like I make sure that people know that I appreciate and I'm thankful for

00:30:16.873 --> 00:30:20.733
the things that they do, whether it's my co-workers, whether it's students or

00:30:20.733 --> 00:30:22.313
my administrators. Yeah.

00:30:22.944 --> 00:30:28.364
Thanks for backing me up. Yeah, I've done 100%. I've done the exact same thing

00:30:28.364 --> 00:30:32.764
with my current boss and just said, hey, thanks a lot for taking the time today.

00:30:32.944 --> 00:30:38.244
I know I don't need to, but I just felt that it's necessary and let you know

00:30:38.244 --> 00:30:40.944
that I appreciate it. Because they might be in the position where it's like, you know what?

00:30:41.124 --> 00:30:44.024
It's a thankless job. Yeah, it's a thankless job.

00:30:44.404 --> 00:30:48.184
You're under the microscope all the time and not everybody, you are not going

00:30:48.184 --> 00:30:49.424
to be everyone's favorite flavor.

00:30:49.864 --> 00:30:51.824
No. For sure. It's true.

00:30:52.424 --> 00:30:58.404
Yeah. I think as colleagues and co-workers, I have had really great experiences

00:30:58.404 --> 00:31:03.744
with my fellow teachers showing appreciation, having thinking,

00:31:03.964 --> 00:31:05.304
wow, that was great. Oh, my goodness.

00:31:05.604 --> 00:31:08.944
You know, almost to the point where people are like, don't say that about,

00:31:09.144 --> 00:31:10.424
don't say I did a good job.

00:31:10.504 --> 00:31:14.164
You know, they're so not used to receiving it. Isn't that awful?

00:31:14.344 --> 00:31:18.284
It's crazy. And even, I mean, there's been years where we've said like, oh, you know what?

00:31:18.444 --> 00:31:23.224
You're with this teacher who used to do this book cafe and she would put out

00:31:23.224 --> 00:31:26.644
like tablecloths and make it look like it was really a restaurant.

00:31:26.804 --> 00:31:30.604
She had like the little lights on the tables, the candles and the whole.

00:31:30.704 --> 00:31:35.024
And it was like, can you, you know, in a meeting, like, can you speak to that?

00:31:35.144 --> 00:31:38.244
Like explain how you got the ideas and what? And it was like,

00:31:38.564 --> 00:31:43.224
you know, like, oh, my gosh, because it's just not a space I think that people

00:31:43.224 --> 00:31:45.704
are used to being able to.

00:31:45.824 --> 00:31:48.484
We used to say, like, what would you be willing to sell a ticket to?

00:31:48.724 --> 00:31:53.164
And it's like that idea of like people are doing amazing things day in and day out.

00:31:53.704 --> 00:31:58.044
But they're not really, it's more so like what you didn't do or what you forgot

00:31:58.044 --> 00:32:02.204
to do, or, you know, that kind of, or, you know, the new lesson plans and the

00:32:02.204 --> 00:32:06.284
new systems and the keeping up with all of the, you know,

00:32:06.664 --> 00:32:09.824
changes, which can seem overwhelming. So, yeah.

00:32:10.264 --> 00:32:14.304
Yeah. I've tried not to be, you know, counterproductive with things.

00:32:14.444 --> 00:32:17.704
I try to always be, you know, the company man, but there are certain things

00:32:17.704 --> 00:32:20.464
where it's like, I hear people complaining about the lesson plan program we're

00:32:20.464 --> 00:32:24.864
using and this and that, But I just basically blatantly said, I've given up on that.

00:32:25.904 --> 00:32:30.944
No, I'm like, it's true. It's not. Yeah. I said, I said, like, it's not user friendly.

00:32:31.144 --> 00:32:35.204
It doesn't. The one main thing I want to be able to do, and this is the most

00:32:35.204 --> 00:32:40.724
frustrating thing, the hill I will die on, is all I want to do is be able to go.

00:32:41.144 --> 00:32:45.404
All I want to do is be able to go back to last year and see what I did in what

00:32:45.404 --> 00:32:48.624
order I did things. So that I can do it again because it worked.

00:32:49.304 --> 00:32:51.604
Or because I'm like, wait a minute. I think I did that project.

00:32:51.784 --> 00:32:53.644
Did I do that before this chapter or after?

00:32:54.044 --> 00:33:00.404
And I can't go back and look at, I can't go back and look at what I did last

00:33:00.404 --> 00:33:02.464
year. Cause that gets closed off and turned off.

00:33:02.664 --> 00:33:08.184
And now I'm like, what the hell am I doing? Like I'm literally reinventing the wheel again.

00:33:08.424 --> 00:33:12.884
You shouldn't have to do that. I don't do some of the same. I changed the activities that I did.

00:33:13.664 --> 00:33:17.144
Some things I do the same because they're good. Like I do some simulations and

00:33:17.144 --> 00:33:18.664
some mock trials. Like, yeah, they're fun.

00:33:19.044 --> 00:33:21.264
But sometimes I'm like, yeah, maybe I want to change that up.

00:33:21.324 --> 00:33:23.684
And like, I want to look at what I did last year. So now, like,

00:33:23.824 --> 00:33:25.824
I'm like, I'm working on paper and pencil.

00:33:26.184 --> 00:33:29.484
Like, I'm literally, I have my little calendar, I map things out,

00:33:29.644 --> 00:33:31.644
I have my, my standards I want to meet.

00:33:31.744 --> 00:33:34.664
And then I do things that way. But that's extra work.

00:33:35.637 --> 00:33:39.457
That's such a shame. Oh, well. And I don't mean that.

00:33:39.737 --> 00:33:44.117
And I was sitting in a room with other veteran teachers. And one was about to be observed.

00:33:44.337 --> 00:33:46.257
And he was talking about, like,

00:33:46.257 --> 00:33:48.577
should I do this? It was going to be yesterday. Now she's coming today.

00:33:48.737 --> 00:33:51.197
Should I flip up the lesson? Should I do this? And he's like,

00:33:51.337 --> 00:33:54.817
why do I even care about this? Like, I've been doing this for 25 years.

00:33:54.857 --> 00:33:56.957
And I'm like, because you've been doing this for 25 years.

00:33:57.557 --> 00:34:00.937
That's why you're having this conversation in the room right now.

00:34:01.317 --> 00:34:04.237
Yeah. You want your boss to come in and say, hey, you know what?

00:34:04.237 --> 00:34:06.897
That was a great job. I really like that lesson. Yeah. All right.

00:34:07.297 --> 00:34:12.477
Another thing that I don't want to have you leave us today without talking about

00:34:12.477 --> 00:34:17.117
this is I think your point of view on bribery versus.

00:34:19.137 --> 00:34:23.917
Rewards. Yes. Because that to me is like a teacher on teacher crime where people

00:34:23.917 --> 00:34:28.697
sometimes accuse like they only do that because you give them Jolly Ranchers or whatever it might be.

00:34:29.177 --> 00:34:39.057
So can you tell us a little bit about your. So I am, we reward ourselves all the time, right?

00:34:39.417 --> 00:34:44.417
Whether, I mean, it doesn't happen in teaching, but my brother got a bonus.

00:34:44.437 --> 00:34:47.857
My husband's firm gives out bonuses. We don't get that.

00:34:47.977 --> 00:34:54.857
But people get raises every year because they exceeded expectations.

00:34:55.837 --> 00:35:00.257
We treat ourselves with ice cream cups, we went and we worked out.

00:35:00.437 --> 00:35:04.457
We give ourselves rewards all the time for doing something.

00:35:04.697 --> 00:35:07.797
And so sometimes for kids.

00:35:09.189 --> 00:35:13.289
Praise is not enough. And intrinsically, they're not like, I know what to do

00:35:13.289 --> 00:35:15.269
and I'm going to do it and I'm going to be a great kid.

00:35:15.429 --> 00:35:19.749
They don't care. So you have to show them why that's so important.

00:35:19.989 --> 00:35:26.929
So if giving them a sticker or a Dolly Rancher for doing what I asked the first

00:35:26.929 --> 00:35:30.509
few days of teaching, you know, I don't do it every day,

00:35:30.669 --> 00:35:34.549
but the first few days of teaching expectations at the beginning of the year

00:35:34.549 --> 00:35:35.969
and then again in January.

00:35:36.389 --> 00:35:42.949
If this group over here is being loud and obnoxious and these kids here are

00:35:42.949 --> 00:35:47.989
doing what I want, if I raise my voice and say, thank you, Ryan.

00:35:48.289 --> 00:35:52.189
Here's a piece of candy. You did exactly what I wanted and it gets them to stop

00:35:52.189 --> 00:35:56.109
talking. I think it's worth it. And then you phase it out.

00:35:57.269 --> 00:36:02.989
Because many people, I mean, Come on. We do this job because we love children,

00:36:02.989 --> 00:36:06.429
but I wouldn't do it for free. I have a mortgage. I need to eat.

00:36:06.789 --> 00:36:09.469
Right? We still work for a paycheck.

00:36:09.849 --> 00:36:11.549
Jamie needs that summer ice cream money.

00:36:13.169 --> 00:36:19.269
It's true. There's a place for rewards, but it's not bribery because you're

00:36:19.269 --> 00:36:21.209
going to phase out the rewards.

00:36:21.469 --> 00:36:24.489
Just like when you have to put a kid on a behavior plan.

00:36:24.709 --> 00:36:28.309
A start chart is only going to be for two weeks. So you're going to give them

00:36:28.309 --> 00:36:33.869
the rewards for two weeks and you're slowly going to spread out what they have

00:36:33.869 --> 00:36:36.389
to do to get that reward. It's not going to be three stars.

00:36:36.649 --> 00:36:41.149
It's going to be five stars and then eight stars and then 10 stars until they're

00:36:41.149 --> 00:36:46.029
taking on that new behavior as a habit or they're not.

00:36:46.229 --> 00:36:49.069
And then that's more data that they have to go be tested.

00:36:49.589 --> 00:37:01.149
You know, so I was surprised at how much pushback I got on a video about that. Why are you giving kids?

00:37:02.809 --> 00:37:08.229
Why are you bribing them? I'm not. I'm showing them how much I appreciate them. Yeah, I like that.

00:37:09.153 --> 00:37:12.553
Do you do you find that there's pushback among your colleagues that they're

00:37:12.553 --> 00:37:14.973
like you shouldn't do that because blah blah blah is there any is there any

00:37:14.973 --> 00:37:20.133
of that if you don't mind me asking oh you mean doing the videos or the bribery no the bribery.

00:37:23.053 --> 00:37:27.953
If that's a really interesting question i i was teaching kindergarten in in

00:37:27.953 --> 00:37:33.333
1999 and i got engaged i i i um looped to first grade and then i got engaged

00:37:33.333 --> 00:37:38.713
and in 2000 i moved down here from North Jersey to South Jersey because I got married.

00:37:38.893 --> 00:37:40.973
And the job that I got was seventh grade.

00:37:41.173 --> 00:37:44.013
And so I went into middle school with an elementary mind.

00:37:44.233 --> 00:37:46.633
I did Friday prizes for behavior.

00:37:47.073 --> 00:37:51.033
If you didn't get the certain amount of stars, you didn't get your Friday prize.

00:37:51.233 --> 00:37:55.593
And my colleagues on my team, I was the language arts teacher on the team,

00:37:56.813 --> 00:38:00.913
hated that I gave Friday prizes. But they also complained about the students'

00:38:01.133 --> 00:38:04.273
behavior and I didn't have the same complaints, right?

00:38:05.313 --> 00:38:07.873
They didn't like that.

00:38:09.333 --> 00:38:14.493
I was the only Jewish teacher in the whole school and the kids didn't know what Hanukkah was.

00:38:14.633 --> 00:38:18.373
So if I wanted to teach Hanukkah, I decided to do a Christmas around the world

00:38:18.373 --> 00:38:24.833
unit. And they thought I was doing like baby projects, but I wasn't.

00:38:24.953 --> 00:38:29.053
I did a project for each country and then they had to write a story that took place in that country.

00:38:29.213 --> 00:38:32.493
I gave a rubric. I was looked at differently then.

00:38:32.853 --> 00:38:37.653
But in elementary school, you're not looked at it that way.

00:38:37.853 --> 00:38:42.633
And now that I'm teaching grades three to eight, I'm the only GT teacher in the whole district.

00:38:42.893 --> 00:38:46.653
And my room is in the middle school. I love being up there.

00:38:46.853 --> 00:38:52.413
I think that a lot, well, with PBIS now, everything is.

00:38:52.933 --> 00:38:57.353
Yeah, that's one of the things that But I remember being in a school that implemented that.

00:38:57.473 --> 00:39:01.233
We had a huge program. We put the whole thing together. And you just basically

00:39:01.233 --> 00:39:03.573
had some teachers that were like, I'm not doing that.

00:39:04.553 --> 00:39:07.493
They basically just said, I'm not I'm not taking part in it.

00:39:07.613 --> 00:39:13.833
We're not going to give them because exactly what you said was what the goal of PBIS was.

00:39:14.013 --> 00:39:16.433
It was you are trying to recognize good behaviors.

00:39:16.653 --> 00:39:21.693
Right. So the kids that are not behaving will say, oh, I want that. Hey, I want that thing.

00:39:21.853 --> 00:39:24.593
And then they're going to start falling in line and you start rewarding them.

00:39:24.693 --> 00:39:28.993
So we had like pieces of paper and it would be raffles and prizes and all sorts of stuff like that.

00:39:29.073 --> 00:39:31.853
But we had flat out some teachers that were like, no, I'm not doing that.

00:39:31.853 --> 00:39:39.073
And then the inconsistencies that started because of that, because if they were

00:39:39.073 --> 00:39:42.153
getting it in one class and they weren't getting it in another class, the same thing.

00:39:42.253 --> 00:39:44.673
They were seeing certain behaviors in one class, certain behaviors in another

00:39:44.673 --> 00:39:51.433
class, and it became a war of attrition to get people to be on board with like, hey, let's.

00:39:51.433 --> 00:39:56.073
Or we'd have like a initiative where we'd say, all right,

00:39:56.193 --> 00:39:59.913
we're going to make sure that this week we are giving out extra tickets for

00:39:59.913 --> 00:40:05.613
students that are compliant with the dress code or quiet in the hallway or whatever

00:40:05.613 --> 00:40:06.693
it is that they were trying to do.

00:40:06.953 --> 00:40:09.913
And you try to recognize those kids for, for what they were doing.

00:40:10.953 --> 00:40:13.933
And some teachers just wouldn't. They wouldn't do it.

00:40:14.333 --> 00:40:19.093
And I don't understand. I mean, yeah, yeah. But that, that's,

00:40:19.233 --> 00:40:20.593
that goes against like everything.

00:40:21.433 --> 00:40:25.233
I believe, you know, just like, you know, you thank your administrator,

00:40:25.473 --> 00:40:29.993
you thank your colleague for being so positive for, for whatever you're,

00:40:30.133 --> 00:40:31.353
you're showing that kid.

00:40:31.773 --> 00:40:35.753
I don't know. I don't know. I see what you're saying.

00:40:35.953 --> 00:40:39.333
It was a challenging environment to be in.

00:40:39.433 --> 00:40:42.493
And there were also things that I, that I, you know, that I,

00:40:42.533 --> 00:40:45.153
I witnessed throughout, you know, like we all do.

00:40:45.313 --> 00:40:48.813
We all have things that we, that we, uh, that we witnessed.

00:40:48.813 --> 00:40:52.533
We had a dress code at the time and there were a bunch of students that were

00:40:52.533 --> 00:40:55.073
you know every day coming in the dress code and some that were like i'm not

00:40:55.073 --> 00:40:58.093
following that and they would get discipline and they would get discipline points

00:40:58.093 --> 00:41:03.333
and then they couldn't go to things and i remember uh i'm gonna tell the story i remember it was uh,

00:41:04.040 --> 00:41:08.560
It was right after Memorial Day and they had a grade level meeting and all the

00:41:08.560 --> 00:41:12.260
eighth graders are in the room and principal got up and said,

00:41:12.360 --> 00:41:14.700
well, you know, there's a lot of kids who weren't discipline points because

00:41:14.700 --> 00:41:16.820
they haven't been dressed properly by the dress code.

00:41:18.060 --> 00:41:22.800
But if you follow the dress code for the next three weeks, we'll erase the discipline

00:41:22.800 --> 00:41:26.820
points and we'll let you guys go to the picnic at the end of the year and the dance.

00:41:27.200 --> 00:41:30.720
And I was teaching an honors class at the time. We had an honors history program

00:41:30.720 --> 00:41:33.760
and we went back in the room and my students,

00:41:34.040 --> 00:41:36.860
went ballistic i'm sure they did in a

00:41:36.860 --> 00:41:39.740
in a good way because these were the ones that were showing up every day and

00:41:39.740 --> 00:41:42.380
they were like i showed up every day where like so you

00:41:42.380 --> 00:41:46.220
mean to tell me like i could and they i just stood back and was like i gotta

00:41:46.220 --> 00:41:50.000
let them vent i gotta let them have their moment nobody was disrespectful nobody

00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:53.700
cursed nobody raised their voice and i was like look i get it yeah look i get

00:41:53.700 --> 00:41:59.000
it and like in that moment when you make a decision like that to like let those

00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:01.420
kids do, uh, do, you know,

00:42:01.760 --> 00:42:05.560
get the pass, then you just basically delegitimized if that's a word,

00:42:06.260 --> 00:42:10.380
that from September to June or September to May, what are those kids who followed

00:42:10.380 --> 00:42:14.740
the rules every single day get nothing, nothing.

00:42:14.980 --> 00:42:17.680
That was just, that was disheartening to those kids. They were,

00:42:17.820 --> 00:42:18.980
they were just beside themselves.

00:42:19.160 --> 00:42:24.120
And that was the message they got. It didn't matter that you followed the rules. Yeah. That's a shame.

00:42:24.809 --> 00:42:27.789
Yeah, it is. Those are tough conversations to have.

00:42:28.029 --> 00:42:31.469
I mean, as a new teacher, I mean, Jamie and I, one of these days,

00:42:31.469 --> 00:42:34.109
go through an episode where we're like, yeah, you know what? You can't say that.

00:42:35.069 --> 00:42:38.429
We can say it. We can say it. But you're a new teacher.

00:42:38.649 --> 00:42:41.389
You know, maybe don't say that. Maybe don't say it. You're a new teacher.

00:42:41.589 --> 00:42:43.869
You can't say it. You can't say it. Wait until you're tenured.

00:42:45.869 --> 00:42:51.669
I have one more scenario that I'd like to pose if we can go back to the learned

00:42:51.669 --> 00:42:52.529
helplessness a little bit.

00:42:53.049 --> 00:42:59.989
But what would you say to a student that asked, so I have this like menu of

00:42:59.989 --> 00:43:02.049
40 different project topics.

00:43:02.189 --> 00:43:05.809
You can choose anything you want to do. You can work with anybody you want to work with.

00:43:06.229 --> 00:43:11.049
And I had a student who said, can you tell me which is the easiest one?

00:43:13.809 --> 00:43:20.109
And I said. I'm laughing because I enjoy Melissa so much. But she's like,

00:43:20.549 --> 00:43:23.269
I was like, are you kidding here?

00:43:23.389 --> 00:43:26.689
You know, are you kidding?

00:43:27.069 --> 00:43:30.309
That's what I would say. You couldn't be serious right now. And then I looked

00:43:30.309 --> 00:43:33.049
over that they had been with, you know, two other students.

00:43:33.169 --> 00:43:35.989
I said, did they know that you just asked me that?

00:43:37.349 --> 00:43:42.229
They don't want to work with me anymore. I said, well, do you think that that might, you know.

00:43:42.409 --> 00:43:45.689
So I'm just curious because that is a new one for me.

00:43:46.109 --> 00:43:51.009
Yeah, I've heard that one. No, me neither. Wow. Just tell me the easiest one to do.

00:43:52.469 --> 00:43:57.449
I mean, for years I had, is this for a grade? It's always for a grade.

00:43:57.609 --> 00:43:58.989
Oh, yeah. We still got that.

00:43:59.909 --> 00:44:04.189
Yes, it's on the report card, but I've never heard what's the easiest one. Yeah.

00:44:04.909 --> 00:44:08.789
Oh, I'm sorry. Thank you. It makes me feel better.

00:44:09.069 --> 00:44:12.669
Thank you. I'm glad. I'm saying that. I'm glad. You know, I was like,

00:44:12.749 --> 00:44:18.449
oh, for me, I love writing. I said the easiest one would be writing poetry. That's a good answer.

00:44:19.489 --> 00:44:27.189
She walked away I mean we'll see what happens but yeah I mean she even does

00:44:27.189 --> 00:44:31.069
something yeah if she even does well you know,

00:44:32.049 --> 00:44:35.789
we do what we can do and the

00:44:35.789 --> 00:44:39.089
way as we can do it so Melissa we definitely

00:44:39.089 --> 00:44:43.189
you didn't fix everything I mean

00:44:43.189 --> 00:44:46.469
you really I have to say I

00:44:46.469 --> 00:44:49.389
gave so many wonderful answers so much you

00:44:49.389 --> 00:44:52.369
do such great content thank you and you're a

00:44:52.369 --> 00:44:55.269
yeah a fantastic follow so thank you so much thank you

00:44:55.269 --> 00:44:58.529
i felt this was so much fun yeah awesome well

00:44:58.529 --> 00:45:03.649
uh hey hey uh miss wonko do you have that ad read handy that i don't have in

00:45:03.649 --> 00:45:09.209
front of me so we can do that again for our season three sponsor i feel like

00:45:09.209 --> 00:45:13.089
i my dog ate my homework today so season three is brought to you by our presenting

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00:45:27.989 --> 00:45:33.049
All right. Well, listen, Melissa, I know she does, right? She's got a,

00:45:33.149 --> 00:45:35.649
I have a face for radio. She's definitely did good for TV.

00:45:36.709 --> 00:45:41.929
Melissa, Jamie, I appreciate you both. Thank you very much for the episode today.

00:45:42.569 --> 00:45:45.669
Melissa, I appreciate you. Thank you so much for being here.

00:45:45.669 --> 00:45:48.769
Thank you for asking me. This was a ball. Thank you.

00:45:49.029 --> 00:45:52.829
Awesome. So we'll see everybody next time on the Balancing Act podcast. Bye.