Executive Functioning for K–3 Teachers with Mitch Weathers and Sarah Oberle

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Hey, what's going on, friend? How are you? I'm good. How are you?

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I'm good. I'm on the mend.

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Me and my fantastic pickleball injury. I've had my little knee procedure,

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so I'm, you know, I got flying colors from my physical therapist that I was strong and I'm good.

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So I'm just going to keep doing it. And you're back on the pickling.

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No, I have to take it easy first and, you know.

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Soon. Yeah, hopefully.

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Yeah, for sure. No, I'm feeling good. It's good to see you, friend. I'm glad you're here.

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We have some great guests in the wings today. Guests, that's right,

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plural. We've got some cool stuff going on today.

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And we are gearing up for a very special thing that's coming up next week.

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Can't wait to tell you guys all about it. Yes. And this is Joseph Vitalian.

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I'm Jamie Wonko. And this is the Balancing Act podcast.

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Yeah, I should mention who we are. That would probably help.

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I'm just so excited. And what else do we have for season three?

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Hey, we got lots of things for season three, like our presenting sponsor.

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That's right. I just said season tree, like I'm some kind of a,

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hey, season tree, like some Italian guy or something. Okay.

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So season three is brought to you by our presenting sponsor,

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Teacher's Insurance Plan.

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Make sure you check out the link in our description in the episode for more

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information or to get a quote.

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Teacher's Insurance Plan, auto insurance that brings exclusive educator savings

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and exceptional customer care to New Jersey and Pennsylvania educational employees.

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We have talked a lot about executive function.

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It's Joe's favorite thing to talk about. talk about i mean

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yeah uh but definitely this is going to be a cool talk today um and we have

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a returning guest with who brought a friend with him so we're really excited

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to have him so why don't we bring him on in and get to talking well hello mitch

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weathers and sarah oberley how are you it's very good to have you guys here with us today how are you.

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Great. Thank you. All right. We are super excited to have you.

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Mitch, I think your microphone might be muted there.

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Hey, now we're back. I'm excited. We're excited to be here.

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Yes. Thank you so much for joining us today on the Balancing Act podcast.

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We've had the pleasure of meeting Mitch and talking to him last season.

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And this is our first time speaking with you, Sarah. So it's so nice to meet

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you. Thank you so much for being here.

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Well, thank you for having me. So we are super excited for you guys to talk

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about all the things executive function. Please fix our lives.

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I know that you have a new book out that you guys are going to be talking about today.

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We're really excited to hear about it and also about all things executive function,

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Mitch, because we really enjoyed our talk last season, which was great.

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As Jamie knows, this is one of my favorite things to talk about.

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This and ice cream are Joe's top two favorite things. It might be Diet Coke, then ice cream, okay?

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And executive functioning, yes. Then executive function, yes, for sure.

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So, Mitch, tell us what you've been up to recently, man. What's been new in

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the Mitch Weathers world?

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Well, the last two years has been, I can't remember exactly when we recorded.

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I want to say it was about springtime last year, right around this time last year, I think. Okay.

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Okay, so I probably didn't mention it.

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I don't know when Sarah and I started the project, but when the first book on

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executive functions came out in March of 2024, and it was really well received, which is great.

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We've been doing all kinds of great work around that. But one of the kind of

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consistent bits of feedback were the K-1-2, K-1-2-3 teachers.

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The primary space, like, what about us?

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Because the subtitle of my first book specifically mentions grade bands 3 through 12.

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And I was very deliberate because my work with Organized

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Binder and my own teaching experience I've had quite

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a bit of upper elementary middle to upper elementary middle

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school and then high school experience and I really wanted that

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that first book to be genuine and authentic

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and I felt like I could speak to those those grade

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bands as an expert and provide

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some value but what I didn't want to pretend that i understood as

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well were the primary years and like more than

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more times than i can count we would have like a book study offered

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by a district or a county office or something where people

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could just sign up and the consistent like every time it was all the primary

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teachers that signed up first like right out of the the shoot and then they

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would you know still participate and read the book we'd have good discussion

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but if they were being honest they're like it's not an exact fit.

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I'm pulling things from it, right? Which is fine. So...

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What I've been up to since we've chatted is I had the good fortune of meeting Dr.

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Sarah Oberle in 2022 and have interacted since then. I got to hear her speak

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at a conference that she invited me to.

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I've never heard a more succinct definition of working memory and cognitive load.

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And in response to that feedback, I said, you know, this book,

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it needs to be written. The work needs to be created and put out in the world.

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And I know who is the perfect partner to do that and reached out to Sarah and

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she said yes, thankfully.

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And so that's what both of us have been, one of the things we've been working

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on since then and it just now published.

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So that is awesome. That's what's been keeping us busy.

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Yeah. I often look at like K to three teachers. I know that that's what the

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book is geared towards, correct?

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Um and i often look at like k to three teachers as like rock stars to me because

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like i can't i can't do it like i don't know how they do it i don't i and and

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those they're adorable the kids are their kids are cute and you know i loved

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that age when my kids were that age but i i could not,

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for the life of me i couldn't do it i i just and a lot of people look at me

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teaching middle school for 28 years in the same vein, right?

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They'd say the same thing.

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They would say the same thing, but I just, I can't. I know, Jane,

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you did elementary school for a short period of time.

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Yes, but I didn't do the primary, I mean, the early childhood.

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Oh, you didn't do early childhood? No, no, no. It was also interesting when

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we visited a local college recently and we had this little session about teaching

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in the classroom with a great group of students from the college in New Jersey,

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who many of which have become listeners. so hi guys hi guys um.

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So many of them in that little group that we met with were early childhood education.

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And they were just like these little passionate sponges of like,

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and I was sitting there and I'm listening to them talk about,

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you know, their, their excitement to go into the profession.

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And I'm like, I don't know how they're going to do this.

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Cause I don't know how you teach those little piles of mashed potatoes and get

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them to do things that you want them to do. Uh, it's so crazy to me to,

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to think about that on, on the daily that I just don't.

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And if I do, it's normally in a nightmare and I wake up in a cold sweat.

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So, um, for sure. Um,

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how would you guys define, or Sarah, I'll throw this to you.

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How would you define, um, executive function in the context of kindergarten

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to third grade students?

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Like, what does that look like in a kindergarten to third grade class or?

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Um i'm happy to uh respond to that i just want to first say that i feel that

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way about middle schoolers oh i have two myself in my home and um oh you do they they.

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You're like warmed up their heart there sarah and that's i've always heard that

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is easier to go up in the grades than it is to go down. Okay.

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And so, you know, I'm in first, so I've only got one more grade to go down.

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But, yeah, so I have the utmost respect for middle school because,

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you know, that just kind of, I would be petrified.

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What grade are your kids in? Okay, so...

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My own children are fifth and seventh.

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Okay. So the seventh grader, like this is the worst. It's, it's just,

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it's the worst year. It's all uphill from here. It's all uphill from here.

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Like this is this, like, if you want me to lie to you, Sarah,

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I will. But like, this is the year where it's like, it's, it's the worst.

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And then next year, it just kind of levels off. Like they, you know,

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their brains develop a little bit more.

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They become less impulsive, but then you have your fifth grader that's going

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to come into this too. So you'll at least know what to expect when it comes

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down the pike in a couple of years.

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Yeah. Well, I know nothing.

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And, you know. Oh, yeah. That sounds about right.

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But I just have a question because my 16-year-old is still saying the same thing.

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So, Joe, I'm not sure it gets better.

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Yeah. Right at 13, Sarah, is pretty much when we don't know anything anymore.

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We can't teach them anything. They know everything. We don't know everything.

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That happens right at the age of 13. So that tracks. It tracks pretty much. It really is.

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It's miraculous. I mean, they know what I'm going to say before I even say it.

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But to answer your question, executive functions, they are a set of interrelated

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cognitive processes that we rely on,

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not just as children or students, but as humans, to keep ideas in mind, to,

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inhibit ourselves from acting on impulse, to control and drive our attention

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to what we need to be paying attention to,

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to complete goals, and to get along with other people, to be able to switch

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between tasks quickly. So,

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In a K-1-2-3 environment, you know, that looks like things like being able to

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pay attention to the teacher and listen to the teacher when the teacher's talking and not be,

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you know, in a daze or playing with your friends or your fingers or,

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you know, looking out the door.

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It looks like remembering the directions and then being able to complete a task independently.

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It looks like understanding that when unpredictable things happen,

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that that's okay and we don't have to cry and we don't have to get angry and

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it's going to be all right.

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So all of those situations require executive functions.

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And in the early years, we're looking at, so there's six executive function processes.

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There's three, they're divided into two groups. And the three that develop first

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are called the core executive functions.

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And that's what Mitch and I focused on for the book that we just wrote.

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And that is because those are developing toddler to, you know, elementary age.

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So for K-1, 2, 3, really important to understand because your kids are in the

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midst of explosive of development with those core executive functions.

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Now, beyond the core, once the core are established, then you get the three

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higher order, which is the other three out of the six,

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which are planning, reasoning, and problem solving.

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So at ages five, six, seven, eight, we're not necessarily looking for that,

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but we are very much relying on our students and their developing ability to, you know,

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hold information in their minds, to get along with their peers, to, you know,

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exhibit the student behaviors that we need them to learn to be successful in

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an academic environment.

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So when, sorry, I was just pulling up my notes again.

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What are some early signs teachers

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and parents might notice that point to executive function struggles?

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Because I know a lot of parents, when they'd want to support their kids outside

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of the classroom with the teacher's expectations, right?

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What should we be looking for? What are some warning signs, if you will,

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as to how we can assist our kids, our own children with executive function at the primary grades.

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And I'll, I'll let Mitch jump in, but I just want to give a disclaimer that

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at the ages of, you know, pre-K, kindergarten, first, second,

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we have to consider the fact that they are in development.

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So we're not looking for our students to, you know, exhibit 100% ability to control themselves.

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I mean, even adults can't do that. So we just have to keep in mind,

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is this just development or is this disfluency with executive functions?

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It's not necessarily a problem.

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It's just us understanding that it's under construction. Go ahead, Mitch.

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Yeah i know i was thinking you're gonna mention the same thing that it's really,

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understanding with this this book um in particular is one of the i think the.

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Biggest value points it's going to add is just an understanding of what's happening,

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developmentally with students and to remember that sarah and i keep talking

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about these you put on these executive functioning glasses and you're kind of

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seeing all things not just the student and maybe the behaviors they're demonstrating

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with this knowledge, kind of equipped with this knowledge.

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So another note before we talk about what it might look like,

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signs of executive dysfunction is one, as Sarah said, keep in mind,

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they're just starting to emerge in these little tiny human beings.

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So that should be expected and even anticipated. and therefore how we approach

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our learning environments, our instruction, our routines are kind of through that lens.

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And another thing to note is that.

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This work is designed and intended to be a tier one, an MTSS tier one,

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so that all students are getting exposure to access.

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And one of the things that Sarah and I talk about in the book,

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and it's pretty common that when you say executive functions,

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it tends to, when you look at that work, it tends to be couched in tier two,

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tier three, and our special ed teams, which is fantastic.

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But um when in

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the absence of a tier one right we can't tier

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two ourselves out of a tier one that's missing the tier one problem but if it's

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there and we're anticipating maybe some of these struggles and adjusting things

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to to help students have the best chance of kind of developing these core executive

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functions it's a win-win so the anticipation and then the fact that it's for all kids.

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But what would it look like? In fact, you know what?

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I'm going to let Sarah respond to that because she has so many stories.

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And at first, she would say when we're writing the book that we don't even have to say that.

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And I'd be like, what do you mean? She's like, primary teachers,

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it'll feel like we're talking down to them or we don't understand.

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This is literally the air we breathe so we're

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gonna leave that and some of that she actually finally had to send

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me a video to show me like this is what i

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mean by like step by step by step and the just the behaviors and the little

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bodies in the room and it was like you were saying earlier joe it's like i was

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exhausted at the end of the five minute video which was a tutorial on how to

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put your chair up at the end of the day and there was like seven steps that

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she modeled each step and i was It's like,

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oh my gosh, she's been doing this for six hours, right?

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So what's it look like? I think it would be more authentic to hear from a couple

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antidotes from you, Sarah.

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Right. So maybe from today, perhaps, yes.

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Um, uh, so, you know, again, just to emphasize seeing these things does not

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mean that there's a problem.

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It just simply, uh, is, you know, illustrative of the fact that we are at,

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at these ages, we are still working on getting there.

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So, um, some of the things that you might see are very quickly forgetting instructions.

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So, you know, you get a set of directions for an activity and two seconds later,

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they're asking you what to do and you're like, I just told you.

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So, you know, it's possible that they weren't able to maintain attention.

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It's possible that their working memory was so overloaded.

00:17:36.928 --> 00:17:42.808
Maybe you gave them too many directions at once or whatever the learning activity

00:17:42.808 --> 00:17:46.188
was or the content that you were covering.

00:17:46.188 --> 00:17:51.728
They're trying to maintain that in mind and keep your directions in mind and

00:17:51.728 --> 00:17:52.708
something's got to give.

00:17:52.928 --> 00:17:58.188
So you'll see things like that. You'll see kids that really struggle constantly.

00:17:59.176 --> 00:18:03.156
To orient their attention where it should be. So if I'm teaching,

00:18:03.156 --> 00:18:09.656
I expect my students to be looking at me or looking at the board or something that I'm gesturing to.

00:18:09.916 --> 00:18:15.076
But sometimes you'll see kids that are, you know, almost in a daze,

00:18:15.196 --> 00:18:16.796
not that adults don't do that too.

00:18:17.036 --> 00:18:23.516
But for kids, it's much, much harder to release that reflexive attention,

00:18:23.736 --> 00:18:28.396
the things that you want to kind of drift off in your mind or the things that

00:18:28.396 --> 00:18:30.376
are externally distracting to you.

00:18:30.596 --> 00:18:35.736
So you'll see kids that really struggle with that attentional piece.

00:18:35.936 --> 00:18:43.456
You will see kids who have a really hard time getting over changes in schedules

00:18:43.456 --> 00:18:47.736
or disruptions in normal routines

00:18:47.736 --> 00:18:53.916
that's very upsetting for them or they tend to like ruminate on it.

00:18:54.576 --> 00:18:57.836
I always say, you know, if I see a substitute after I've been out,

00:18:57.936 --> 00:19:00.376
they'll always say, this one kept telling me what to do all day.

00:19:00.496 --> 00:19:03.336
It kept telling me I was doing it wrong, that that's not how the teacher does it.

00:19:03.736 --> 00:19:10.216
And so it is because they are so tied to the way that things are supposed to be.

00:19:10.656 --> 00:19:13.936
And it is hard for them to release that rigidity of thoughts.

00:19:14.796 --> 00:19:18.316
So, you know, I could get more content specific if you'd like,

00:19:18.396 --> 00:19:25.576
but those are just some general common behaviors that you might see that could

00:19:25.576 --> 00:19:35.056
be indicative of either a compromised executive function processes or just the fact that, you know,

00:19:35.256 --> 00:19:37.856
they are by nature in process.

00:19:38.216 --> 00:19:41.996
So, yeah. And I think it's harder for kids that age to do things.

00:19:42.756 --> 00:19:49.116
I think what you're saying strikes a struggle chord with me because in lots

00:19:49.116 --> 00:19:52.836
of the teachers that we know and even Joe and I, our experiences in middle school,

00:19:53.076 --> 00:19:56.516
there is such a common difference.

00:19:57.061 --> 00:20:01.581
Thread of kids not doing those things that you had said.

00:20:01.661 --> 00:20:05.001
And it's so developmentally inappropriate for the average seventh or eighth

00:20:05.001 --> 00:20:10.001
grader not to be able to listen to a set of directions and then apply.

00:20:10.181 --> 00:20:13.201
And we're just seeing that like widespread across the board.

00:20:13.401 --> 00:20:18.561
And those are definitely things that if you're in development in pre-K one,

00:20:18.761 --> 00:20:23.281
two, three, by the time that you're in eighth grade, should mostly be handled.

00:20:23.761 --> 00:20:27.961
And so I think we're seeing that spread throughout. But there's kind of this

00:20:27.961 --> 00:20:33.661
pattern of developmental problems not being addressed in the primary grades,

00:20:33.661 --> 00:20:35.921
and then they just continue on.

00:20:36.201 --> 00:20:40.541
And, you know, little kids, little problems, big kids, big problems.

00:20:40.781 --> 00:20:45.641
But it's definitely something that we see throughout middle school,

00:20:45.661 --> 00:20:48.021
which is concerning for sure.

00:20:50.462 --> 00:20:54.102
And we hear that all the time, you know, when we discuss this and we're talking

00:20:54.102 --> 00:20:58.542
about primary and people will say, well, I see the same thing in my high schoolers

00:20:58.542 --> 00:21:01.742
or, you know, and so it might look a little different.

00:21:02.022 --> 00:21:09.142
And it is true, again, executive functions are human cognitive processes.

00:21:09.522 --> 00:21:16.282
So some of us just have a stronger ability to inhibit ourselves from doing something

00:21:16.282 --> 00:21:19.882
we want to do, from checking our phone, from eating something that we shouldn't eat.

00:21:19.882 --> 00:21:26.042
So it is very individual, but we have to keep in mind for the purposes of our

00:21:26.042 --> 00:21:33.042
teachers of K123, just how delicate these processes are.

00:21:33.182 --> 00:21:39.942
And we rely on them so much for completing academic learning, academic tasks.

00:21:39.942 --> 00:21:47.962
So just to be wary of how fragile they are and what can we do to preserve whatever

00:21:47.962 --> 00:21:51.222
our students have, whatever they bring to us. Yeah.

00:21:51.642 --> 00:21:56.522
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00:21:56.822 --> 00:22:01.542
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00:22:44.161 --> 00:22:45.501
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00:22:45.501 --> 00:22:49.001
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00:23:26.001 --> 00:23:32.021
Can you share one or two simple strategies that teachers can start using to

00:23:32.021 --> 00:23:34.701
support working memory or even self-regulation?

00:23:37.821 --> 00:23:43.281
Sure. Want me to jump in, Sarah? Sure. Yeah. We can piggyback on this one.

00:23:43.801 --> 00:23:48.181
So we, in the book, the core executive functions, working memory,

00:23:48.441 --> 00:23:53.861
inhibition, can I inhibit both external, internal stimuli or feelings,

00:23:53.921 --> 00:23:58.401
and then cognitive flexibility are the three core executive functions.

00:23:59.261 --> 00:24:02.941
And that's a great question, by the way, Jamie, because it's looking at,

00:24:03.021 --> 00:24:07.881
you know, what realistically is in my sphere of influence as an educator?

00:24:07.881 --> 00:24:14.701
What can I influence in terms of executive functions in the primary years in particular?

00:24:14.861 --> 00:24:18.321
That's true of any year, but since we're talking about this book and those grade

00:24:18.321 --> 00:24:22.281
bands, and specifically the

00:24:22.281 --> 00:24:26.261
three kind of domains that we outline are the environment, environment.

00:24:26.994 --> 00:24:31.154
My instruction and routines. And when we look at,

00:24:31.274 --> 00:24:35.654
I'll just speak to environment real quick, and maybe Sarah can mention instruction

00:24:35.654 --> 00:24:42.294
and routines, but we specifically kind of hone in on the acoustic environment,

00:24:42.594 --> 00:24:46.114
the visual environment, but then also the physical environment.

00:24:46.114 --> 00:24:49.774
And if I'm looking at that space,

00:24:49.974 --> 00:24:54.674
the learning space through a cognitive load lens, recognizing

00:24:54.674 --> 00:24:57.854
that working memory is kind of the the engine

00:24:57.854 --> 00:25:00.814
for learning if you will the engine for staying on

00:25:00.814 --> 00:25:04.954
task and paying attention and it's finite it has a a certain amount of bandwidth

00:25:04.954 --> 00:25:10.134
to it and the more i'm using for anything other than those factors there's just

00:25:10.134 --> 00:25:15.894
less available and that's where joe your question about what behaviors you know

00:25:15.894 --> 00:25:19.114
like sarah was saying they it may be an issue, it may not.

00:25:19.414 --> 00:25:23.874
And as we start to put those executive functioning glasses on and think about

00:25:23.874 --> 00:25:29.454
our environment, I tell a story of a student that I talked to because I was

00:25:29.454 --> 00:25:31.614
in a walking classrooms.

00:25:31.614 --> 00:25:35.994
I was visiting a school and it was a really loud, I happened to be in a really

00:25:35.994 --> 00:25:39.554
loud classroom just at that time of day, it was in elementary.

00:25:39.954 --> 00:25:42.934
And I noticed a student who had her eyes

00:25:42.934 --> 00:25:46.394
closed and was kind of doing the lean back

00:25:46.394 --> 00:25:49.174
during the the lesson and i had a chance

00:25:49.174 --> 00:25:52.334
to chat with her afterwards and she just shared

00:25:52.334 --> 00:25:56.074
with me you know well that's that's what i have to do to like try to block out

00:25:56.074 --> 00:26:00.294
the sound because it was one of these classrooms whereas the kids got louder

00:26:00.294 --> 00:26:04.954
the teacher just kept shouting louder and louder you know and and doesn't work

00:26:04.954 --> 00:26:10.414
obviously but that was kind of the the way it rolled in there and so considering okay the.

00:26:11.096 --> 00:26:16.156
I'm using that inhibitory process. I'm trying to inhibit that so that I can

00:26:16.156 --> 00:26:22.376
focus on what I'm trying to do, the activity, the lesson, whatever it is that I'm focusing on.

00:26:22.656 --> 00:26:26.216
Well, that takes a lot of that cognitive energy bandwidth.

00:26:26.616 --> 00:26:30.476
So as a teacher, it's not saying that it has to be silent all the time,

00:26:30.616 --> 00:26:33.416
but is a noisy classroom always a productive classroom?

00:26:34.056 --> 00:26:38.956
Might be. It might not be. And so putting those glasses on and thinking about

00:26:38.956 --> 00:26:40.656
that, same thing with the visual environment.

00:26:40.656 --> 00:26:46.496
Sarah very well, they assess this all the time that like just the research is

00:26:46.496 --> 00:26:51.816
very clear that the scanning and looking around is really taxing on working memory.

00:26:52.256 --> 00:26:56.556
And so how do I start to think about the visual field that I play students in?

00:26:56.676 --> 00:26:57.976
And again, it's strategic.

00:26:58.476 --> 00:27:02.216
Sarah's with her first grade students all day long. so there's

00:27:02.216 --> 00:27:05.636
going to be times where it might be advantageous for

00:27:05.636 --> 00:27:08.476
it to be quiet or quieter and I'm giving

00:27:08.476 --> 00:27:11.756
direct instruction or delivering some directions or

00:27:11.756 --> 00:27:15.776
whatever it might be so maybe I'm going to stand in a place where there's less visual

00:27:15.776 --> 00:27:18.696
stimuli behind me or in the visual

00:27:18.696 --> 00:27:21.656
field so those types of considerations would

00:27:21.656 --> 00:27:24.696
be right which I personally think are really almost fun and

00:27:24.696 --> 00:27:27.476
interesting to step back and go let me think about

00:27:27.476 --> 00:27:30.716
this because there's going to be things that every most students are carrying

00:27:30.716 --> 00:27:34.156
that you can't influence both you

00:27:34.156 --> 00:27:37.216
know it's positive like i want to go to recess and play with my friend or

00:27:37.216 --> 00:27:41.636
maybe they're carrying some stuff from home you know their lived experience

00:27:41.636 --> 00:27:45.916
that they're having to inhibit to stay focused so the invite the environment

00:27:45.916 --> 00:27:49.956
and i'll pass it to sarah for maybe i mentioned of instruction and routines

00:27:49.956 --> 00:27:56.876
but it's that that kind of practical strategies that we outline in the book.

00:27:59.268 --> 00:28:04.788
Go, Sarah. Thanks. So instruction-wise,

00:28:05.368 --> 00:28:12.928
you know, we go into scaffolding and not just instruction, but independent activities,

00:28:13.148 --> 00:28:19.208
making sure that we're not releasing our students to do too much because we

00:28:19.208 --> 00:28:23.928
know that's a long time and that's a lot of directions and content for them to remember.

00:28:23.928 --> 00:28:31.728
Um, one of the things that might seem counterintuitive that we talk about in the book is, um,

00:28:32.028 --> 00:28:36.448
being very careful when you are teaching about the stories that you tell and

00:28:36.448 --> 00:28:39.108
the examples that you give. So, um.

00:28:40.489 --> 00:28:46.489
When I am teaching and I think, oh my gosh, one of my daughters did that yesterday

00:28:46.489 --> 00:28:50.789
and I just want to tell them, as soon as I tell them that, what are they all thinking about?

00:28:51.169 --> 00:28:57.369
They're thinking about Mrs. Overly's daughters and they're thinking about whatever I just brought up.

00:28:57.569 --> 00:29:02.649
And really that was on me because I should have inhibited my impulse to tell

00:29:02.649 --> 00:29:05.129
that story in the moment because now I have them all distracted.

00:29:06.029 --> 00:29:09.009
Same thing goes with examples. so

00:29:09.009 --> 00:29:12.809
I think in the book we used um Disney and

00:29:12.809 --> 00:29:15.509
you know we want to connect with our students we

00:29:15.509 --> 00:29:20.289
want to engage them and interest them but we have to be careful because the

00:29:20.289 --> 00:29:25.069
minute you uh and if you've ever been in a primary classroom you see this right

00:29:25.069 --> 00:29:28.869
away the minute I say okay we're going to talk about maps today we're going

00:29:28.869 --> 00:29:34.409
to learn about map keys and this is a map of Disney it's 25 hands go upright.

00:29:34.669 --> 00:29:43.869
I went to, I saw where, it's like everybody's gone and now that's all they can think about.

00:29:44.049 --> 00:29:48.529
It's like the kids that have their hands up when you're still teaching and you

00:29:48.529 --> 00:29:51.989
know they don't hear you because all they're thinking about is what they want to ask.

00:29:52.509 --> 00:29:57.829
So you have to be careful about connecting with them,

00:29:57.949 --> 00:30:03.709
but not sending them off into another mental space where and now they're distracted

00:30:03.709 --> 00:30:09.049
because you mentioned Disney, and now everybody's mind is on Disney.

00:30:09.409 --> 00:30:13.589
And now you're saying, okay, I just talked about that. Everybody's excited about

00:30:13.589 --> 00:30:14.909
it. But don't think about that.

00:30:15.049 --> 00:30:18.349
We're talking about maps. Remember, guys, that I want you to make map keys.

00:30:18.889 --> 00:30:24.689
And I've just made it harder for them to do that because I sparked this idea

00:30:24.689 --> 00:30:28.069
that is really exciting. So.

00:30:29.182 --> 00:30:34.722
That is one of the considerations that, you know, we can put our students in

00:30:34.722 --> 00:30:38.822
situations that we give them interference.

00:30:38.822 --> 00:30:44.622
We make it harder for them to, we put more demand on their executive functions

00:30:44.622 --> 00:30:50.362
because now, now they have to focus their attention on me.

00:30:50.502 --> 00:30:54.942
They have to ignore whatever's in their environment. They have to try to ignore

00:30:54.942 --> 00:30:59.182
whatever thoughts are popping in that, you know, I really want to think about

00:30:59.182 --> 00:31:03.722
Disney or I, you know, she said her daughters and now I'm thinking about her daughters.

00:31:03.882 --> 00:31:07.362
And one time her daughter came to visit and I remember and let's talk about that.

00:31:07.962 --> 00:31:16.342
So instruction-wise, you know, that is one of the considerations that we suggest.

00:31:18.842 --> 00:31:22.562
Routines, this was an instance where I said to Mitch, we don't have to tell

00:31:22.562 --> 00:31:23.922
these teachers they need routines.

00:31:24.202 --> 00:31:27.922
These teachers, they know this. They will be so insulted if we say,

00:31:28.062 --> 00:31:30.702
hey, primary teachers, you should all have routines.

00:31:30.922 --> 00:31:33.882
Like, we have to to survive.

00:31:35.042 --> 00:31:39.622
But we can be really thoughtful with our routines. Sometimes routines can be

00:31:39.622 --> 00:31:42.562
too complicated. They can be too wordy.

00:31:43.162 --> 00:31:48.162
So we want to think succinctly and we want to think, you know,

00:31:48.762 --> 00:31:53.442
mini routines so that just like when you have a list and you cross things off,

00:31:53.582 --> 00:31:55.802
okay, did that, now I'll go to the next thing.

00:31:55.822 --> 00:31:59.922
We want to think about our routines that way. So just put your folders away.

00:32:01.302 --> 00:32:04.422
Cross it off the list. It's done. Keep it out of your mind. So this way they're

00:32:04.422 --> 00:32:06.922
not thinking about, okay, I have to do that. And then I have to do that.

00:32:07.042 --> 00:32:07.842
And then I have to do that.

00:32:08.622 --> 00:32:13.842
And they're kind of maintaining that all at once versus I did that, got my folder, check.

00:32:14.282 --> 00:32:18.002
Now I can move on to think about the next thing. Um, and if you think about

00:32:18.002 --> 00:32:21.902
it, this applies for, for any person, but particularly in the classroom with

00:32:21.902 --> 00:32:27.222
our kids that are more vulnerable to these, um, you know, cognitive demands.

00:32:28.242 --> 00:32:35.042
So, um, you know, Just when we understand executive functions a little bit about

00:32:35.042 --> 00:32:36.342
what's going on in our students'

00:32:36.542 --> 00:32:43.262
minds, we can sort of start to anticipate some of the pain points that might be ahead.

00:32:43.622 --> 00:32:50.482
We can start to identify, oh, I feel like there's several kids here who are

00:32:50.482 --> 00:32:53.842
telling me they don't remember the directions. I think I gave them too much.

00:32:54.662 --> 00:32:58.282
It's just too much for them. Or I put them in a situation. I say,

00:32:58.382 --> 00:33:03.042
everybody go find a partner. and now there's arguments happening and somebody's crying.

00:33:03.542 --> 00:33:08.042
That was too much flexibility for me to expect them to be able to exhibit.

00:33:08.042 --> 00:33:10.342
I should have just assigned them the partners.

00:33:10.702 --> 00:33:16.882
So those are just a few examples of what we need to think about.

00:33:18.083 --> 00:33:24.663
All of which to middle school teachers here in this conversation with us,

00:33:24.843 --> 00:33:29.623
I imagine you're sitting there listening going like, yeah, that's applicable to middle school.

00:33:29.863 --> 00:33:33.243
Might look a little bit different. I know it is for as a high school teacher. It's like this.

00:33:33.943 --> 00:33:38.083
Yeah, it's what we're really what everything we're talking about,

00:33:38.183 --> 00:33:42.223
right, is the hidden curriculum that exists in every classroom in the world.

00:33:42.363 --> 00:33:44.083
This these unspoken kind of.

00:33:44.243 --> 00:33:48.203
Well, I just assume you could do that. That's the expectation. And, you know,

00:33:48.643 --> 00:33:52.563
stepping back from that, which is the one, the one thing that with this book

00:33:52.563 --> 00:34:00.103
specifically saying K3 and it is written for K3 and we really want teachers

00:34:00.103 --> 00:34:02.343
in those grade levels to be heard and seen.

00:34:02.343 --> 00:34:07.923
But every teacher K through,

00:34:08.203 --> 00:34:15.263
I would say, even college would benefit from reading this and or spending some

00:34:15.263 --> 00:34:19.303
time in a really gifted primary teacher's classroom because it's all relevant.

00:34:19.903 --> 00:34:25.563
I know when you were speaking about the routines, I was thinking about when

00:34:25.563 --> 00:34:28.763
we do stations in my classroom, and I had a conversation with Jamie about it

00:34:28.763 --> 00:34:29.623
because we're in the same building.

00:34:30.083 --> 00:34:34.203
And I was talking about, yeah, every time we do stations, this kid gets a job,

00:34:34.323 --> 00:34:36.443
and this kid gets a job, and everybody has a different job.

00:34:36.503 --> 00:34:38.883
And she's like, oh, you rotate the jobs? I'm like, yeah.

00:34:39.814 --> 00:34:43.734
I don't know. We don't do that. They get a job and that's their job for the

00:34:43.734 --> 00:34:47.014
year. So if they're the collector, if they're the recorder, that's their job.

00:34:47.594 --> 00:34:52.174
And that makes a lot more sense to me now looking at it because it allows them

00:34:52.174 --> 00:34:55.434
to take ownership and know every time this is what I'm doing.

00:34:56.054 --> 00:35:00.434
And to me, that's one of those simplification of the process, right?

00:35:01.154 --> 00:35:07.354
Now I'm varying it because I want them to learn the different responsibilities, but it might be best,

00:35:07.814 --> 00:35:12.134
for me to have them just stay with that one particular job each time they're

00:35:12.134 --> 00:35:16.914
in station so they know the exact expectation of what they're supposed to do in that activity,

00:35:17.134 --> 00:35:23.474
which I thought was very valuable for me to learn when I had that conversation with Jane.

00:35:25.634 --> 00:35:26.514
You're offloading.

00:35:27.995 --> 00:35:33.475
The workload there. Right. And not to say mixing things up. Like I like how you said it might be.

00:35:33.815 --> 00:35:37.755
And that's that intentionality. That's the glasses. Because what you're saying

00:35:37.755 --> 00:35:42.495
there is like, well, the goal of this, because I'm not assessing their ability

00:35:42.495 --> 00:35:45.995
to do that job, that's not the point of your lesson that day or what you're

00:35:45.995 --> 00:35:48.215
teaching. And I think that's what we've got to always remember.

00:35:48.855 --> 00:35:52.815
Sarah and I talk about it. What are you trying to assess? Because it might take

00:35:52.815 --> 00:35:58.495
these five abilities or things that I have to do to finish this one thing.

00:35:58.655 --> 00:36:01.495
So just be mindful of that. that right like

00:36:01.495 --> 00:36:04.255
what's what am i assessing and in this case

00:36:04.255 --> 00:36:06.975
you're not assessing whether or not they can collect papers or do

00:36:06.975 --> 00:36:13.075
this and so the more automatic it becomes to your point right there joe that's

00:36:13.075 --> 00:36:17.755
just automaticity like i just do it i just do it now it's not interfering with

00:36:17.755 --> 00:36:21.355
the thing i am trying to learn or the thing that we're trying to assess and

00:36:21.355 --> 00:36:25.195
the more we can get to automatic and routines,

00:36:25.415 --> 00:36:31.615
of course, that's huge, the better because you're freeing up working memory.

00:36:32.035 --> 00:36:35.475
You're keeping that bandwidth as great as you can.

00:36:35.715 --> 00:36:42.255
And teachers are so good at assessing what their classroom routine,

00:36:42.255 --> 00:36:43.915
what works, what doesn't work.

00:36:44.335 --> 00:36:49.595
And that's something we talk to some of the newer teachers or teachers in training

00:36:49.595 --> 00:36:54.035
or college-age students about is learning what works or doesn't work.

00:36:54.215 --> 00:36:58.795
And then also being able to say, like for me, as someone who's been in this

00:36:58.795 --> 00:37:02.495
game a long time, you know, normally at this point of the year,

00:37:02.675 --> 00:37:04.755
my eighth graders are on their way to high school.

00:37:05.750 --> 00:37:09.230
Seat selection. You can choose where you'd like to sit.

00:37:10.030 --> 00:37:18.210
And this is the first time in five years that I've said, and we're back to assigned seats.

00:37:18.990 --> 00:37:26.010
You can't do it. And if I'm going to make this end of the school year where

00:37:26.010 --> 00:37:30.890
you're going to see me show up every day, seat selection didn't work for you.

00:37:31.050 --> 00:37:33.050
Now, will I try it again next year?

00:37:33.350 --> 00:37:37.290
Absolutely. But, you know, and that's the other part, too, is that I like the

00:37:37.290 --> 00:37:39.550
idea of the glasses are on or off or changing.

00:37:39.750 --> 00:37:43.950
And it is, I think, a real perfect skill set that teachers.

00:37:44.710 --> 00:37:49.770
The good ones, really know to be able to change and be flexible in that way

00:37:49.770 --> 00:37:56.550
because it doesn't always work and it doesn't always fail, you know, one way or the other.

00:37:56.790 --> 00:38:00.490
But it's not a result of our processes either, right?

00:38:00.670 --> 00:38:03.990
No. Yeah. But the routines can change and the routines are different,

00:38:03.990 --> 00:38:06.310
you know, based on the different groups that you have.

00:38:06.430 --> 00:38:09.630
And I mean, we teach multiple classes throughout the day.

00:38:10.270 --> 00:38:14.410
And so as teachers, even in the primary grades, if you have the same class all

00:38:14.410 --> 00:38:18.090
day long, you might have someone who pushes in in the morning and then is not there in the afternoon.

00:38:18.090 --> 00:38:23.530
And, you know, so those routines change, you know, throughout throughout the day as well.

00:38:23.530 --> 00:38:30.650
And, you know, so I'm definitely I like the, you know, the idea of the specifics

00:38:30.650 --> 00:38:36.510
for for primary grades and especially to I mean, you know, we've been teaching for so long.

00:38:36.630 --> 00:38:42.430
It used to be the degree even that I hold is K-8 and that's not a degree anymore.

00:38:42.930 --> 00:38:49.410
They have, you know, the pre-K to three or pre-K two, and then I guess three to five.

00:38:49.570 --> 00:38:53.230
They've kind of like chunked, which is so important because there's such huge

00:38:53.230 --> 00:38:57.530
differences, you know, in those years. And I think that's what Joe said at the beginning.

00:38:57.670 --> 00:39:02.090
Oh, you taught the primary grades. I never went in any of my teaching experiences.

00:39:02.090 --> 00:39:05.930
I never went below third grade because that was, you know.

00:39:06.669 --> 00:39:09.949
Too too young for me um but my

00:39:09.949 --> 00:39:14.289
sister's been teaching kindergarten for a very very long time and i'm just curious

00:39:14.289 --> 00:39:18.729
like as a personal question when you talk about routines um there's there's

00:39:18.729 --> 00:39:23.829
this mention recently of kids um you know doing some new and and i guess creative

00:39:23.829 --> 00:39:29.069
behaviors um and one of them is a trend of like taking their shoes off,

00:39:31.169 --> 00:39:34.809
so they go to the rug and we're supposed to be sitting at the rug and we're

00:39:34.809 --> 00:39:40.749
taking our shoes off And that is new and different behaviorally than something

00:39:40.749 --> 00:39:42.669
that she had ever seen before.

00:39:42.889 --> 00:39:46.669
Would that be a routine issue, behavior issue? What do you think,

00:39:46.789 --> 00:39:49.529
Sarah? I'm just curious how you might handle.

00:39:49.749 --> 00:39:55.049
It's time for the rug and we're going to read. I think it's a hygiene issue

00:39:55.049 --> 00:39:57.549
is what it is. It could be.

00:39:59.791 --> 00:40:03.351
You know, I don't know if that's, and you'd have to ask your sister,

00:40:03.491 --> 00:40:09.751
maybe you know, if, like, I will get kids that come from Montessori schools,

00:40:09.751 --> 00:40:14.571
and they'll walk in and say, hi, Sarah, and I have to say, I'm Mrs.

00:40:14.731 --> 00:40:21.291
Overly or Dr. Overly, because that's just, there's different expectations there.

00:40:21.291 --> 00:40:26.611
So I don't know if somewhere along the line there was an environment where those

00:40:26.611 --> 00:40:28.771
kids thought that that was okay.

00:40:28.991 --> 00:40:32.511
Or I don't know if this is like a trend. I don't really see that.

00:40:32.891 --> 00:40:37.651
I'll see once in a while a shoe fall off. And it's usually because they can't keep them tied.

00:40:37.671 --> 00:40:41.571
And I probably already said six and a half times, like, you have to wait.

00:40:41.831 --> 00:40:45.631
So a shoe falls off. But I don't see that.

00:40:45.631 --> 00:40:48.911
And I don't know if you're saying that some

00:40:48.911 --> 00:40:51.671
teachers are either allowing it or encouraging it

00:40:51.671 --> 00:40:59.491
but I would say they're not allowing or encouraging yeah yeah we're we're gonna

00:40:59.491 --> 00:41:02.611
say no we're not gonna do that here we have to keep our we have to keep our

00:41:02.611 --> 00:41:06.971
shoes on we have to be safe now I know there's days like there's sometimes classroom

00:41:06.971 --> 00:41:10.671
rewards where one of the where words will be like, you know, shoes day.

00:41:12.011 --> 00:41:12.791
Fine, whatever.

00:41:13.671 --> 00:41:17.031
But I don't think that's an executive function. That's a like,

00:41:17.271 --> 00:41:21.871
you know, establishing and reinforcing your expectations in the classroom.

00:41:22.211 --> 00:41:25.991
Is it multiple kids or just like, I don't know you're speaking for Janine here,

00:41:26.071 --> 00:41:28.891
but like. I'm not, I'm not. I retract. Nevermind.

00:41:30.191 --> 00:41:31.371
I take it back.

00:41:33.251 --> 00:41:36.271
I, the next, we have another question for you.

00:41:37.031 --> 00:41:41.271
What changes do you hope to see in students as they're developing these,

00:41:41.271 --> 00:41:45.711
these skills as we're trying to lessen some of the gaps in learning?

00:41:45.711 --> 00:41:51.231
But what, what are you looking for as far as when you're fostering these changes

00:41:51.231 --> 00:41:53.571
in the kids? What are you looking for?

00:41:56.154 --> 00:42:02.194
That makes sense. Well, looking for, first of all, their ability to recognize

00:42:02.194 --> 00:42:07.654
in themselves, start to recognize like, oh, I got distracted or,

00:42:07.894 --> 00:42:10.534
oh, I can I have some headphones?

00:42:11.814 --> 00:42:18.254
She's singing and humming and, you know, she does that all day long and I can't focus on my work.

00:42:18.554 --> 00:42:22.594
Or, you know, can you close the door? I'm distracted by whatever.

00:42:22.594 --> 00:42:28.354
So the kids become aware of, am I paying attention or not?

00:42:28.834 --> 00:42:31.314
And they can even do that in first grade.

00:42:32.054 --> 00:42:39.254
And so, you know, we'll start to see kids that'll say like, can I have a divider?

00:42:39.434 --> 00:42:44.854
Which is basically like a testing tent or like you've ever heard or seen something like that. Sure.

00:42:45.054 --> 00:42:49.054
Yeah. Because I, you know, my friend is already done with their work and I can't

00:42:49.054 --> 00:42:53.054
stop looking over there. And I'm like, well, good for you for realizing that.

00:42:54.214 --> 00:42:58.754
You know, we hope to see that our kids, now we're not going to see this from

00:42:58.754 --> 00:43:02.994
the beginning to the end of the year, but over the years, we want to see our

00:43:02.994 --> 00:43:04.794
kids become more independent,

00:43:05.054 --> 00:43:12.754
more responsible for keeping their things together, for, you know, following directions.

00:43:13.734 --> 00:43:19.354
And as they are growing and maturing, they are able to maintain more.

00:43:19.354 --> 00:43:23.894
And we can expect more, but not a ton more.

00:43:24.654 --> 00:43:31.034
So certainly adults are much more capable than children, but if you're talking

00:43:31.034 --> 00:43:32.934
a kindergartner to a second grader,

00:43:33.314 --> 00:43:38.914
the maturation is certainly there, but we're not growing leaps and bounds in

00:43:38.914 --> 00:43:45.214
working memory or our ability to sit and look at a cool new toy and not pay

00:43:45.214 --> 00:43:47.534
attention to it because I have to wait till recess,

00:43:47.534 --> 00:43:50.354
but the teacher left it out. And now that's all I can think about.

00:43:51.627 --> 00:43:59.427
Hmm. And it's worth adding on to that, that, um, with like you,

00:43:59.527 --> 00:44:02.307
you, the, the, you're saying like, what should we see?

00:44:02.527 --> 00:44:06.467
And these are the behaviors we're hoping to spot.

00:44:06.667 --> 00:44:09.587
And if there's specific was a Sarah has a great line that these,

00:44:09.647 --> 00:44:13.187
these behaviors are brought to you by executive functions. Like they're the

00:44:13.187 --> 00:44:14.567
cognitive underpinning.

00:44:14.647 --> 00:44:17.007
So that's happening developmentally. And we're not.

00:44:17.949 --> 00:44:22.409
It's not possible to speed that up because I'm quote unquote teaching executive

00:44:22.409 --> 00:44:25.289
functions. Executive functions aren't taught, right?

00:44:25.489 --> 00:44:30.389
So, but these behaviors, and I think it's worth kind of teasing out,

00:44:30.529 --> 00:44:34.089
you hear executive functions and then you hear executive functioning skills.

00:44:34.489 --> 00:44:38.409
When you hear that word skills, we're talking about behaviors, right?

00:44:38.489 --> 00:44:43.269
These things I can do that are sponsored by or brought to you by executive function.

00:44:43.469 --> 00:44:47.409
So for the teacher that's wanting to see is that maturation is happening.

00:44:47.409 --> 00:44:52.429
However, at whatever pace that it's going, it's worth, like,

00:44:52.469 --> 00:44:57.029
okay, like Sarah just mentioned, being able to keep track of my stuff becomes,

00:44:57.289 --> 00:45:01.289
and that, by the way, that third grade that's in both titles of both books is

00:45:01.289 --> 00:45:06.129
deliberate because it tends to be, not always, but tends to be kind of this

00:45:06.129 --> 00:45:09.829
inflection point where we start to, without usually saying too much about it,

00:45:10.129 --> 00:45:13.809
expect some of these behaviors to start to emerge.

00:45:13.809 --> 00:45:20.289
And my urge, you know, kind of encouragement to teachers is,

00:45:20.369 --> 00:45:24.709
well, whatever those skills, those behaviors you're trying to see,

00:45:24.829 --> 00:45:27.189
you want to see, make sure you're modeling them.

00:45:27.709 --> 00:45:32.329
Very clearly modeling them and as a byproduct of routine, letting them practice that.

00:45:32.329 --> 00:45:36.669
So, yeah, we should expect by third or fourth grade, you're keeping track of

00:45:36.669 --> 00:45:38.529
your stuff. Okay, but what does that look like?

00:45:38.949 --> 00:45:42.009
I'm going to show you what it looks like to get and stay organized.

00:45:42.169 --> 00:45:46.449
And we're going to practice that every day because it's the third step when we do X, Y, and Z.

00:45:46.769 --> 00:45:52.629
So it's habituated just by routine. But over time, I'm getting practice with

00:45:52.629 --> 00:45:54.869
the quote unquote skill or the behavior.

00:45:54.869 --> 00:46:00.429
And that we can't just, even though these executive functions are growing and

00:46:00.429 --> 00:46:04.429
emerging and as we mature and age.

00:46:05.481 --> 00:46:10.601
It's worth noting that be very, very explicit about what that skill or behavior

00:46:10.601 --> 00:46:15.301
you're wanting to see develop and model it for students and give them practice

00:46:15.301 --> 00:46:18.561
again and again and again so they can make it their own.

00:46:18.781 --> 00:46:22.781
That's something you actually had mentioned in an earlier, you know,

00:46:22.861 --> 00:46:27.221
our previous conversation was about the D, when we talked about organized binder,

00:46:27.321 --> 00:46:29.501
we talked about, you know, the process

00:46:29.501 --> 00:46:32.961
of executive function needs to be embedded into what you are doing.

00:46:32.961 --> 00:46:36.561
It's not a separate thing it's like part of

00:46:36.561 --> 00:46:39.741
the the the greater good yeah

00:46:39.741 --> 00:46:42.661
of what the classroom is going to look like so i made it a better point this

00:46:42.661 --> 00:46:45.461
year to do just that to make sure that we talked

00:46:45.461 --> 00:46:50.141
about like when we are prepared for class what does that look like like that

00:46:50.141 --> 00:46:53.641
our device is charged that we have something to write with that we are you know

00:46:53.641 --> 00:46:56.541
focused and intentional to get our day started that we've looked at the anchor

00:46:56.541 --> 00:47:01.781
chart or the you know the anchor slide in the room like I've tried to model

00:47:01.781 --> 00:47:02.781
that as much as possible.

00:47:03.521 --> 00:47:07.021
And that's been very, there's been some payoff with that. Okay.

00:47:07.661 --> 00:47:11.701
Again, it also allows me to recognize those kids that are not able to cue into

00:47:11.701 --> 00:47:16.601
those subtle reminders and then kind of a, hey, that's what we should be doing right now.

00:47:16.861 --> 00:47:20.721
We should be, remember, that's what we're doing, like to try and get them on

00:47:20.721 --> 00:47:21.701
track with everyone else.

00:47:21.801 --> 00:47:24.401
So that's been very valuable. And I think that that's something that probably

00:47:24.401 --> 00:47:27.041
follows through in the theme of what's in the book.

00:47:27.741 --> 00:47:31.941
So. Yes. Yeah. I mean, that's that tier one, right? Like all kids.

00:47:32.938 --> 00:47:36.518
Oh, sorry. Go ahead. Sorry. I was going to say our episode with Mitch from last

00:47:36.518 --> 00:47:39.138
season premiered on April 29th of 2025.

00:47:39.278 --> 00:47:41.218
Why are students not successful in schools?

00:47:41.538 --> 00:47:44.098
We did talk quite a bit about Organized Binder Method.

00:47:45.058 --> 00:47:51.658
And we can also, you can check out Sarah and Mitch's book, which is available.

00:47:52.078 --> 00:47:54.398
Which, by the way, we didn't ask you what the title of the book was.

00:47:54.538 --> 00:47:57.558
I would like to apologize for not starting out with that.

00:47:57.698 --> 00:48:00.418
What is the title of this book, first of all?

00:48:00.958 --> 00:48:04.178
And do we have one to hold up? Are you reaching over to grab one or no?

00:48:04.338 --> 00:48:07.078
Do we both have one? Oh, shadeless plug.

00:48:07.938 --> 00:48:10.798
Executive functions for every K3 classroom?

00:48:11.978 --> 00:48:17.478
Yes, we will make sure that that is linked. Promoting self-regulation for a strong start.

00:48:17.798 --> 00:48:22.238
Very good. And we're going to make sure that that's linked in our episode description down below.

00:48:23.478 --> 00:48:27.338
Mitch and Sarah, we appreciate you guys very much for being able to join us today.

00:48:27.498 --> 00:48:30.538
Thank you very much. And also, we want to remind everybody that our Season 3

00:48:30.538 --> 00:48:34.378
is brought to you by our presenting sponsor, Teacher's Insurance Plan.

00:48:34.558 --> 00:48:36.278
Check out their website for more information.

00:48:36.598 --> 00:48:40.018
And to get a quote, Teacher's Insurance Plan, auto insurance that brings exclusive

00:48:40.018 --> 00:48:43.378
educator savings and exceptional customer care to New Jersey and Pennsylvania

00:48:43.378 --> 00:48:44.858
educational employees.

00:48:45.298 --> 00:48:49.238
Mitch, Sarah, Joe, I appreciate all of you. I cannot wait to get a copy of that

00:48:49.238 --> 00:48:54.078
book into the hands of my primary grade school teacher friends. That's awesome.

00:48:54.358 --> 00:48:55.718
I appreciate you. And by the way,

00:48:55.838 --> 00:48:59.738
we teased a special announcement at the beginning of our episode today.

00:49:00.178 --> 00:49:05.198
Join us next week because it is our 100th episode, if you can believe it.

00:49:05.338 --> 00:49:09.238
A podcast that started with two friends deciding to have too many cocktails

00:49:09.238 --> 00:49:12.898
and be like, we should set a podcast. Toes in the sand to 100 episodes.

00:49:13.078 --> 00:49:18.138
We cannot wait. Live from the New Jersey Hall of Fame. Yep. That's where our

00:49:18.138 --> 00:49:20.778
recording was. That's right. That'll be our special episode next.