Toxic Mom Groups and Relational Aggression with Dr. Noelle Santorelli

WEBVTT

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Recording. Hello. I can't even talk. I'm so excited. I know you're so excited.

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Hello. And I just ate putting an hour ago. I'm sorry. Hello.

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And welcome to the Balancing Act podcast. I am Jamie Wackel here with Mr. Joseph Vitale. Hello.

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Hey, friend. What's going on? Good to see you. What's up? Good to see you.

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And you know that my heart is overwhelmed with joy,

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excitement, freaking out yeah i

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know this is this is like she is my girl crush i mean this

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is like sunset hard hands like there's like oh it's how

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you feel about nick ferroni i mean yeah you know it's

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yeah i know fellow jersey guy you know love the

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guy what are you gonna do um so um hey

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yeah you know what else we love you know what else we love

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teacher's insurance plan yes we

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jersey and pennsylvania educational employees oh you know what yeah what somebody just.

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Now I can't remember who it was, but somebody just hit me up on the gram and

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said that they went for they took their kids on a field trip to the New Jersey Hall of Fame.

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Oh, awesome. And they were like, we loved it. The kids loved it.

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It was wonderful. And I was, you know, I was like, oh, heck to the yes. That's great. Yeah.

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That's it's such a cool space. It really is.

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And, you know, especially where we recorded, they have like that whole like

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virtual reality thing that you can do and where you can interview somebody virtually.

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And then they have the karaoke, which I'm upset you didn't do it. I wanted to see it.

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But, you know. Oh, and one of our one of our boys, our son's good friends,

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just decided where he was going to college.

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And it made me think of our producer when we recorded at the Paul's name.

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Because that is where, you know, where he is an alumna, alumni, alumnus, alumnae.

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I mean, before you explode, I think we better bring in our guests too.

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We better like really jump into this. She's so excited. All right.

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Let's bring her in her hearts of flutter.

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Okay. Well, Hey, Dr. Noelle Santorelli, uh, my favorite diet Coke friend.

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Uh, it is so, and by the way, that is no slight on my friend, Courtney white.

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We love you too. because she also is big in the Diet Coke. I grabbed one in solidarity.

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I mean, DC for everybody. Yeah, for everybody. I've heard them called the fridge

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cigarette, which I really...

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I really enjoy. I really resonate with that. Yes. Hey, Doc. Listen,

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we are super excited to have you back with us.

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And not only that, our listeners love when you're on, and we know that you're

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super busy for good reasons.

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So it is just absolutely awesome that we're here.

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And Jamie didn't faint when we brought you in, so everything is wonderful.

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It's a good time for everybody. I'm so excited to be back talking to you guys.

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Thank you. I mean, when we we had our end of season show last year,

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it was like we called it like major monumental moments of season two.

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And I had to say like who our, you know, favorite guest was.

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I remember that. And I was like, of course, it's you. I love Dr.

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Santorelli. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Thank you so much. I love it.

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And you guys are my first ever podcast.

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Yeah, I know. And so we we're going to be asking for it. Yeah.

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We're going to ask for some residuals when. Yes.

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Yes. I understand that. I'm here for that. We were just saying there's like

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a lot of people who say like, wow, you were our first podcast.

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Yeah. And we're like, oh, we're so honored to be able to have,

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you know, like guided you into the world of, you know, podcasts.

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Now you're all over the place. Yeah, you are all over the place.

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So the first thing we want to hear about is like all things Dr.

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Noelle Santorelli, because we had you on late last season, probably around this time. Yes.

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Pretty much in May. So, you know, we'd like to know what's been going on in

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your world these days, Doc.

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So what's been going on? Oh, we got a move on the chin. It's like a whole,

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we love it. Yes, it's a whole thing.

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So, I mean, not much has changed other than obviously I'm still in private practice.

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I'm seeing my clients like normal. But I would say when the Ashley Tisdale article,

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when Ashley Tisdale wrote that article about toxic mom groups.

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I started getting a lot of requests. Refresh my memory on that one.

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I do remember it, but for some reason it's fuzzy. Can you fill me in on that? Sure.

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That was, it was January 6th. So I think it actually was.

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Oh, okay. I do believe it was like January 6th.

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Sometime early January, 2026, Ashley Tisdale wrote an article for The Cut,

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the New York Magazine Cut.

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I think it's New York Magazine, The Cut, about what it was like breaking up

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with her toxic mom group and sort of what she felt in that group and what led

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her to her decision to leave that group.

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And it went super crazy viral.

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Like, it just was like the biggest thing of 2026, early January.

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And I think a lot of the media was like, what is happening? Why,

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why are so many people invested in this?

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You know, Ashley Tisdale's a celebrity, obviously, you know,

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she was in the Hilary Duff era.

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And some of the people, she didn't say this, but who she was taught,

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the people that were in her mom group were other famous celebrities.

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She did not call them out.

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But if you look back on her photos of her with mom groups, it was like Meghan Trainor, Hilary Duff.

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Oh, I'm forgetting the other one. But people you know.

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And so it just took the Internet by storm. And I think so I got a lot of media

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requests around that time asking me to weigh in on it.

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And I think media was just shocked that women, mothers in particular,

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were resonating so strongly with this article.

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Yeah, and even doing a—.

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Of course, for you, you know, it was exactly what you've known and taught us

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and told us and what we know.

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And yeah, of course. And for any of us that are our moms and have gone to,

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you know, PTO, PTA meetings and you've got a field day, you're sort of got,

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you know, like you're dodging bullets. Yeah.

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Who's talking about you? Is your cooler the right size? You know,

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there's a little, I mean, it's a minefield.

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So. Yes. And so I just did a quick Google search of the article because I do,

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once you were talking about it, it kind of spurred my memory.

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But even looking at like a quick query Google search, like there are so many

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response articles, like why it's justified to leave your mom group,

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why you should set boundaries.

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And you're like, it is literally like article after article after article. Is it an overreaction?

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Yeah. Did she overreact? Was this inappropriate? Was it appropriate?

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Are mom groups good? Are they bad? Are they this or that? I mean,

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it went from every angle you can imagine.

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And I would say, I think the overarching response was, yeah,

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this is something really hard that women deal with.

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We'd love for you to recount for us, too, like, you know, a little bit about

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like relational aggression and what your expertise is in.

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Because, you know, for good reason, we've got some more listeners,

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which is great. So maybe they didn't find your earlier episodes,

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which if you didn't, I strongly urge you to listen to those because they're honestly fantastic.

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We have three because we did one and then the two-part. Yeah,

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we did. That's right. We did a two-part or two. That's crazy.

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Better memory than me right now. So this should be our fourth. Yeah, it is.

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Our most returning guest. Love it. Yay!

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Yeah. So we'd love to hear like where your expertise lies and where this comes from.

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So about two years ago, um,

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Yeah, I think it was almost exactly two years ago, this April,

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I started talking about adult bullying or adult bullying, but specifically among mothers.

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What the sort of formal name for adult bullying is, is relational aggression.

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Covert bullying, indirect aggression, social bullying.

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There's lots of different names. And in the research, in academia or research,

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those like differences and nuances between all of them matter,

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for our purposes and for sort of the public's purposes,

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relational aggression is what I'm going to use to encompass all of those.

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And what it is, it's when behaviors are done in a covert way to damage your

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relational standings with other people.

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So someone wants to damage your reputation or your relationships or how you're

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seen relationally with other people.

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And so they use behaviors like gossip, gatekeeping, gatekeeping like not telling

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you where, you know, where the SAT is taking place this Saturday or not telling

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you when the soccer tryouts are.

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They might use obviously triangulation where they get another person in the

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group to get together and go against you.

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There's gaslighting. There's passive-aggressive comments.

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It's what you think of when you think of basic middle school mean girls.

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And hence the word that I started using is mean girl moms, meaning that these

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moms are acting like mean girls. Mm-hmm.

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Why, I have a question about something very specific and personal,

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but why in a situation with relational aggression, if there's a,

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I think triangular is something that, right, involving other people.

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So why, if you have an issue and you approach someone, so if someone was having

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an issue with me, I knew they were having an issue with me, and I approach them

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and I say, like, how can we make this better?

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Can you tell me what I did? Right.

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And their response is, you know, you know what you did.

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Well, what is that? Help me with that.

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Because that's been something for me for quite some time. And I'm like,

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but I really, I don't. I promise. I'm sorry.

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Whatever it was, I don't remember. I don't know. And they just stick with, you know.

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Yeah. I think sometimes when that happens, a couple different things.

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One thing is, A, that's not a healthy behavior, right?

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So period, that's not healthy communication, right?

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That's like what we wouldn't want to teach our adolescents, our elementary school kids, right?

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We would teach them to say, here's what you did to hurt me, or it hurt me when,

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or I didn't like it when, right?

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So at a baseline, that to me is not healthy adult communication,

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right? Baseline. Right.

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When they say something like, you know what you did, they either have interpreted

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and internalized something you did to an extent that is way more egregious or

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serious than something that you ever would have registered it as, right?

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So maybe you did something, and based on their personal background or their

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way of seeing the world or their personality characteristics,

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they interpreted that as something malicious and egregious and terrible.

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And so they might really think

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oh you know what you did right so they

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might really believe that now there's also

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the chance that it is

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a little bit more sinister and they just

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don't really want you around or they don't want you in their group or

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they just don't like what you represent or they don't like something about you

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and there really isn't something that you did and so it sort of catches them

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off guard because a lot of people are not used to being confronted and they're

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not used to having to take accountability or to be called out directly for something.

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And that's part of the thing with relational aggression, right,

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is it's covert for the most part and it's indirect.

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And a lot of people just sort of, it's normalized, right?

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It's become very normalized and a lot of people do not push up against it.

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And so if they do find someone who pushes up and says, well,

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great, tell me what I did and why, they probably don't even know because there

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may not be anything specific.

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It's just that they don't want you in their orbit.

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And so that's a very easy, you know what you did.

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So on one hand, maybe what you did do, they've interpreted it as something terrible.

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And so, again, it's not good communication, but,

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Maybe that's what they're like, you know what you did. It's so bad.

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I can't even talk about it.

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Or there really wasn't anything in particular. You're just not their vibe or

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their cup of tea. And they just want you out.

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And that's a relational aggression move.

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So interesting because you I mean, we see this with like mom groups, but also in families.

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Oh, all the time. So relational aggression, although I talk about it a lot in

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motherhood, because that's when I was first introduced to it.

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From like a personal perspective, just seeing it around me.

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Relational aggression occurs all the time within families.

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And that's where I see it in my private practice mostly is I started to realize, wait a minute,

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what I do for in the daytime in my office, because I work with highly complex

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or conflictual relationships among families.

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I was like, wait a minute, All of these behaviors are going on, but in the friend group.

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Why is this happening? And at the end of the day, a system is a system, right?

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Like a closed system is a closed system.

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And so you're going to see the same types of behaviors operating,

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whether it's a workplace, a mom group, a family dynamic, a church community, right?

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A system is a system. And so you'll start to see similar behavioral patterns

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when you get large groups, particularly of women, together is when we see the

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relational aggression dynamics.

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Something that struck me with the Ashley Tisdale story, and this is something

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that I've witnessed with certain relationships for myself as a mom, also in my family,

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some of my extended family, is that there were a lot of people who—.

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Whether they were on the outskirts of that group or kind of knew some of them

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or even like famous people in interviews at the time were like, just leave the group.

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Why'd you have to say anything? Just leave the group. Why'd you have to say anything?

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And I feel like why are we now judging someone who's trying to shed light on

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something that was obviously very upsetting and hurtful for her in hopes to

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try to create like a sense of awareness?

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It's almost like we're trying to closet people.

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We're trying to shut them down, shut down the feelings.

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It was just that that part really bothered me. That part really bothered me, too.

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It felt very much like a blame the victim mentality. Yeah.

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Like, oh, what? Like, you know, you you were out to a bar and what were you wearing?

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Like, maybe if you weren't wearing that, maybe that wouldn't have happened.

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Like, to me, it was, if you know where I'm going with, like,

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that was the vibe that I was picking up on.

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Like, well, let's blame her for the aftermath and what she did.

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Now, I don't think anyone's saying she shouldn't take accountability for whatever

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it is she did. And none of us will ever know. Right.

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But here's a person who.

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Put into words as a celebrity, something that a lot of regular mothers,

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regular women are feeling.

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And when she posted it, her article on her page, I commented and she responded

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to me and she said she'd seen one of my reels.

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Nice. And it let her know she wasn't alone in this. That's really good.

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You often, I think you mentioned, I think it was you on one of our episodes,

00:17:21.889 --> 00:17:24.409
you said you got to name it to tame it, right? Was that you? Yes.

00:17:24.889 --> 00:17:32.189
I always say you have to name it to tame it. Sometimes it takes somebody of status, I guess, right?

00:17:32.429 --> 00:17:35.209
Ashley Pizdale to come out and say it where other people go like,

00:17:35.249 --> 00:17:38.769
hey, wait a minute. That's me too. They see themselves.

00:17:39.589 --> 00:17:42.629
And they don't know how to deal with it.

00:17:42.749 --> 00:17:47.989
But now that there's this talk around it, then we're learning the skills and

00:17:47.989 --> 00:17:49.869
getting the knowledge that we need.

00:17:49.949 --> 00:17:55.249
Like, hey, you know what? It is okay for me to not be treated this way. Yeah, absolutely.

00:17:55.749 --> 00:18:01.189
And part of the biggest problem is we start to gaslight ourselves when it's happening, right?

00:18:01.309 --> 00:18:05.789
So, so many of the women I speak with, and whether this is in a mom group or not a mom group,

00:18:06.029 --> 00:18:09.629
when you're dealing with relational aggression, whether it's in a family,

00:18:09.869 --> 00:18:15.489
in just a regular woman's group, a mom's group, it is so insidious and so under

00:18:15.489 --> 00:18:17.029
the table, right? Right.

00:18:17.749 --> 00:18:20.829
You start asking yourself, wait, did I do something?

00:18:21.449 --> 00:18:23.809
Or when that woman said, you know what you did, you're like,

00:18:23.929 --> 00:18:28.269
what did I do? Right. And so you start thinking initially, like, well, maybe it is me.

00:18:28.609 --> 00:18:31.789
Maybe I wasn't friendly enough. Maybe I didn't. Maybe I talked too much.

00:18:31.869 --> 00:18:33.009
Maybe I didn't talk enough. Maybe

00:18:33.009 --> 00:18:36.469
I this, maybe I that. And you start to really, really think it's you.

00:18:38.269 --> 00:18:39.789
And that creates a lot of shame. Right.

00:18:40.929 --> 00:18:45.989
And so to have someone say, actually, maybe it's not all you,

00:18:46.149 --> 00:18:47.829
maybe it's some you, right?

00:18:47.949 --> 00:18:52.349
It takes two to tango all the time. But maybe there's a bigger thing than just you.

00:18:52.489 --> 00:18:58.229
Maybe there's a system in place. And, you know, my big sort of hill to die on

00:18:58.229 --> 00:19:00.729
is that this is systemic.

00:19:01.169 --> 00:19:02.929
This is not an individual thing.

00:19:04.434 --> 00:19:10.674
Women are mean. Moms are mean. To me, this is a big systemic problem that's

00:19:10.674 --> 00:19:13.114
an indication of where we are at culturally.

00:19:13.574 --> 00:19:19.594
So to me, this is a symptom of a bigger illness. So relational aggression and

00:19:19.594 --> 00:19:24.874
the way it's coming out, particularly in mothers, and then trickling down to

00:19:24.874 --> 00:19:28.374
the kids, to me, is a big cultural systemic issue.

00:19:29.634 --> 00:19:34.814
Sort of like it's the fever, but there's a deeper infection that's causing it.

00:19:35.294 --> 00:19:39.894
That's deep. And, you know, you said about like a trickling down to the kids

00:19:39.894 --> 00:19:44.934
and like, you know, hearing some of the things from students,

00:19:45.054 --> 00:19:46.314
because we're at the middle school level, right?

00:19:46.314 --> 00:19:50.274
And we hear things from students all the time about like, well,

00:19:50.494 --> 00:19:54.514
you know, this one's in a relationship with that one. And the friends don't

00:19:54.514 --> 00:20:01.134
like the new girlfriend just because she's the girlfriend of one of their friends.

00:20:01.314 --> 00:20:04.514
Like, oh, we have to not like her and keep her at arm's length because what

00:20:04.514 --> 00:20:06.134
if they're not around or what if they're like.

00:20:06.454 --> 00:20:09.394
And, you know, sometimes you're like, well, you're never going to get to know

00:20:09.394 --> 00:20:13.454
me if you treat me in that way.

00:20:13.874 --> 00:20:17.134
You know what I mean? And like it's, yeah. And, but when we're doing that as

00:20:17.134 --> 00:20:19.734
a, as adults, that's a much bigger problem to me.

00:20:19.854 --> 00:20:23.074
And like, Oh, we're excluding somebody because like their kid,

00:20:23.214 --> 00:20:28.474
isn't the best, the best athlete on the travel team or all the other bullshit.

00:20:28.694 --> 00:20:33.654
Right. Like the stuff that just, and I've learned this over the last few years,

00:20:33.754 --> 00:20:35.594
like the stuff that just doesn't matter.

00:20:35.834 --> 00:20:42.634
Like it doesn't matter. You know what matters that your kid is a, a nice person.

00:20:43.674 --> 00:20:48.974
Right. That your kid is empathetic, that they are passionate about something,

00:20:49.174 --> 00:20:51.454
that they are kind and caring.

00:20:52.374 --> 00:20:55.594
Honestly, those are the qualities that matter more than...

00:20:56.737 --> 00:21:01.077
Your prowess on a baseball field. It just doesn't matter.

00:21:01.537 --> 00:21:05.397
You know, what matters is how we treat one another in those situations.

00:21:06.877 --> 00:21:12.097
We read the book that you had recommended to us last year. Trying to think which one.

00:21:13.597 --> 00:21:18.737
Gee, Joe. Oh, the one with the, oh, my goodness. The pencil on the phone.

00:21:19.097 --> 00:21:22.417
Oh, never enough. Jennifer Wallace. Yes.

00:21:22.417 --> 00:21:25.797
Yes and we actually read

00:21:25.797 --> 00:21:29.017
it as an entire staff this year oh

00:21:29.017 --> 00:21:32.057
my gosh did you you should message her

00:21:32.057 --> 00:21:35.177
and tell her she would love to hear that well

00:21:35.177 --> 00:21:40.257
yeah the um our our principal bought a copy for everybody in the building and

00:21:40.257 --> 00:21:47.117
um and it was so wild to hear different um it was great it's a great book right

00:21:47.117 --> 00:21:51.277
it was a great book and there were i mean like i was just like taking notes

00:21:51.277 --> 00:21:54.857
and taking notes and post-its and things I'm going to go back to and reference.

00:21:55.117 --> 00:21:59.857
And there was something that was, you know, interesting, I think,

00:21:59.977 --> 00:22:04.657
because some of the teachers were looking at it like, well, how much of this

00:22:04.657 --> 00:22:07.437
can we really apply like to our students in our school?

00:22:07.597 --> 00:22:13.237
And then there were a lot of people where it was like, can you apply it like in your life?

00:22:13.557 --> 00:22:18.557
And that, you know, like the bigger sort of, you know, idea of like how you

00:22:18.557 --> 00:22:23.917
sit as a parent, how you sit as just like a person like living amongst the people, you know?

00:22:24.357 --> 00:22:28.217
But it was definitely, it was interesting. There were so many things in there

00:22:28.217 --> 00:22:32.457
that I could relate to and it was just so good.

00:22:33.157 --> 00:22:37.197
And really it was, everybody was genuinely like taken with it.

00:22:37.317 --> 00:22:40.957
And there were lots of things, you know, like anytime you read or have any kind

00:22:40.957 --> 00:22:43.937
of information, there were things where it was like, whoa, even our vice principal

00:22:43.937 --> 00:22:46.817
led one of our, because we had these different meetings and different times

00:22:46.817 --> 00:22:49.917
over the few months. And one of them, our vice principal led.

00:22:50.417 --> 00:22:53.977
And I was like, wow. Even like just seeing him in a different way of like what

00:22:53.977 --> 00:22:58.477
he had, you know, you know, poured out from the book to the rest of us. It was like, wow.

00:22:59.051 --> 00:23:03.371
Well, her new book came out called Mattering. Okay.

00:23:03.951 --> 00:23:07.351
That just, well, not just, maybe two months ago, three months ago.

00:23:08.091 --> 00:23:10.131
I think it's already a bestseller.

00:23:12.371 --> 00:23:18.071
And she doesn't say this, but I feel like it's an extension to some degree when

00:23:18.071 --> 00:23:19.491
you say, can we apply this?

00:23:19.531 --> 00:23:22.171
So it's more to applying to everybody.

00:23:22.691 --> 00:23:27.071
So her anecdote right in the back towards the end is like, how do we teach that

00:23:27.071 --> 00:23:30.951
you matter? That's an anecdote to this, like, performance-driven culture.

00:23:31.571 --> 00:23:35.371
So her new book is mattering. And, like, how do we encompass that,

00:23:35.391 --> 00:23:38.651
not just for our kids, but, like, as humans in general?

00:23:39.271 --> 00:23:41.391
Yeah. I'm trying to think of a...

00:23:43.081 --> 00:23:46.341
Of an article that i uh that i brought i remember

00:23:46.341 --> 00:23:49.821
the the talk with the vice principal too um there

00:23:49.821 --> 00:23:53.481
was it there was an article that i brought about like removing barriers for

00:23:53.481 --> 00:23:59.601
students and what that does is it it creates like this that this like we're

00:23:59.601 --> 00:24:03.721
bulldozing every single situation and one of our fellow teachers made a comment

00:24:03.721 --> 00:24:07.681
and teaches it very difficult children and he's like hey like

00:24:08.081 --> 00:24:10.961
yeah a little bit of of the word that

00:24:10.961 --> 00:24:13.901
i keep going back to is grit right that kids

00:24:13.901 --> 00:24:16.961
need a little bit of grit to get through like tough situations

00:24:16.961 --> 00:24:19.861
and right there are many of them that just don't have

00:24:19.861 --> 00:24:25.361
it because we are removing those things for those kids and he's like hey i'm

00:24:25.361 --> 00:24:28.721
teaching these kids how to do this because like i want them to be productive

00:24:28.721 --> 00:24:32.641
members of society you got to show up to a job you got to be on time you got

00:24:32.641 --> 00:24:37.841
to you know do this and do that like you know like all All of us are the worker bees that we are, right?

00:24:38.101 --> 00:24:42.841
Like that's what he's trying to teach them in what he does with him and those

00:24:42.841 --> 00:24:46.041
kids in a math class, the difficult kids that you would have. Right.

00:24:46.301 --> 00:24:54.141
Well, so we, we can't just remove those stressors from every child and expect

00:24:54.141 --> 00:24:56.681
them to be able to function properly in a society.

00:24:57.501 --> 00:25:00.761
No, no. And I think part of the problem that I.

00:25:02.202 --> 00:25:07.682
You know, again, I see the increase in relational aggression as symptomatic

00:25:07.682 --> 00:25:11.422
of a bigger cultural issue that we have as parents.

00:25:11.742 --> 00:25:19.182
I think that the status anxiety has gotten to such a level that we want to,

00:25:19.382 --> 00:25:22.302
as parents, remove any obstacle.

00:25:22.302 --> 00:25:25.802
And we've been doing this for a while, right, since like the helicopter parenting.

00:25:25.802 --> 00:25:28.902
Yes it's hard to develop grit though

00:25:28.902 --> 00:25:32.182
when your child is just your report

00:25:32.182 --> 00:25:35.302
card so if my child is my report card

00:25:35.302 --> 00:25:43.282
right i want a good report card and so i'm going to clean it up if it looks

00:25:43.282 --> 00:25:47.582
like a c is coming or a b is coming or god forbid a d is coming right i'm going

00:25:47.582 --> 00:25:53.702
to step in and clean it up because that's becoming a reflection of how I am. What job am I doing?

00:25:54.002 --> 00:25:59.202
So I think that the parents are getting, and this is the same with sports, all the things.

00:25:59.542 --> 00:26:05.582
It's social status anxiety. So parents are having anxiety that their status

00:26:05.582 --> 00:26:10.942
is going to be reflected or not reflected in their child's performance and outcomes.

00:26:10.942 --> 00:26:16.202
So the child's almost like a decoy for their own self-worth and they're living

00:26:16.202 --> 00:26:17.762
through the child, right?

00:26:17.982 --> 00:26:20.522
And that's where some of that, you see it in college admissions,

00:26:20.522 --> 00:26:24.082
you see it in who made the travel team, who made the this, who made the that.

00:26:24.282 --> 00:26:25.802
It's about status anxiety.

00:26:26.062 --> 00:26:29.242
And that's the season that we are in, right? One of the things we were going

00:26:29.242 --> 00:26:34.382
to ask you about is like Jamie and I just went through that whole application cycle and.

00:26:35.429 --> 00:26:42.269
I know for my kids, it was, where do you see yourself being happiest and most successful?

00:26:43.189 --> 00:26:50.489
Period. Period. Period. That was it. That was the only measuring stick I wanted

00:26:50.489 --> 00:26:55.789
them to use for what college that they went to. We had one more part.

00:26:56.069 --> 00:27:02.549
Where do you see yourself being happy, successful, and not with a lifetime of debt?

00:27:03.069 --> 00:27:06.389
Yes. Right. Absolutely. No, I know you too, Joe.

00:27:06.569 --> 00:27:13.089
Yeah, I agree. That's the other part is that you, it's become so expensive.

00:27:13.829 --> 00:27:15.449
Oh, yeah. That, you know, so

00:27:15.449 --> 00:27:19.829
that had to be part of the realistic conversations that we went through.

00:27:19.989 --> 00:27:23.049
But even, I mean, talk about like relational aggression. Even in,

00:27:23.189 --> 00:27:29.389
I had joined a bunch of online groups, which were very helpful in showing how to,

00:27:29.809 --> 00:27:35.209
you know, even like the codes to apply so that you can apply and not have to pay.

00:27:35.389 --> 00:27:38.709
Like things like that. Like you can't avoid it, which I was like super duper.

00:27:38.849 --> 00:27:40.269
Like, yeah, I want a code.

00:27:40.669 --> 00:27:45.409
And then, yeah. And then how you can challenge merit money and how you go about doing that.

00:27:45.509 --> 00:27:49.409
And they can offer you more. And like, so I did find as much as like some of

00:27:49.409 --> 00:27:51.229
them, you were sort of just like dredging through.

00:27:51.429 --> 00:27:55.389
It was like, no, this is necessary because I don't, I'm a first time parent

00:27:55.389 --> 00:27:58.549
sending it, you know, it's my first kid going to college.

00:27:58.889 --> 00:28:03.849
But at the same time, it was like that nitpicky, like I will be getting out

00:28:03.849 --> 00:28:07.429
of those groups and then waiting another four years to join them again.

00:28:07.709 --> 00:28:12.049
But it was things like, okay, we finished our applications.

00:28:12.109 --> 00:28:15.369
And then some people would be like, yes, oh, what a great feeling,

00:28:15.549 --> 00:28:18.569
submit. And then other people would say, like, you're not supposed to say we.

00:28:19.648 --> 00:28:24.528
You're not supposed to say we, and it's like, oh my gosh, okay, please, you know.

00:28:25.448 --> 00:28:31.108
Like just so, who, it's like, this is, and this is something that I've said

00:28:31.108 --> 00:28:35.028
like throughout my mom's illness, I say this to my dad all the time,

00:28:35.648 --> 00:28:37.928
this is your first time living too.

00:28:38.468 --> 00:28:41.368
Yes and i tell that to my kids like this

00:28:41.368 --> 00:28:44.708
is my first time living i i'm just trying

00:28:44.708 --> 00:28:47.628
my best and i say that to my dad and we talk you

00:28:47.628 --> 00:28:51.428
know it's like one of those things that we've come to really like rely on because

00:28:51.428 --> 00:28:57.468
right we're trying our best so this whole idea of picking at someone for like

00:28:57.468 --> 00:29:01.968
just one word it's like yeah like i grew i always say to my kids like i grew

00:29:01.968 --> 00:29:05.248
you like i i'm sorry I'm having a hard time with, like,

00:29:05.388 --> 00:29:07.728
letting go of certain things, like, screw you.

00:29:08.208 --> 00:29:10.468
So it's like there's, you know, there's, like, just that idea.

00:29:10.648 --> 00:29:12.708
But you're going to pick on somebody for— I do not say that.

00:29:12.708 --> 00:29:15.768
Oh, I know. I do. I say, like, I'm sorry, but, you know.

00:29:15.948 --> 00:29:19.008
Right. And it is true. It's like, I want the best for you.

00:29:19.068 --> 00:29:22.468
But at the same time, like, can we say we, you know, can we just leave,

00:29:22.528 --> 00:29:24.408
like, leave each other alone a little bit?

00:29:24.868 --> 00:29:28.868
Have you ever thought, I work in education. Why is finding a job so weirdly hard?

00:29:29.148 --> 00:29:32.728
Yeah. Scrolling through random job boards where half the listings don't even

00:29:32.728 --> 00:29:34.528
make sense is not the vibe.

00:29:34.708 --> 00:29:37.808
That's why njschooljobs.com actually makes sense.

00:29:38.068 --> 00:29:41.528
It's a job board built specifically for New Jersey schools, public,

00:29:41.848 --> 00:29:43.508
private, charter, and parochial.

00:29:43.668 --> 00:29:46.928
Teachers, administrators, counselors, support staff, coaching opportunities.

00:29:46.928 --> 00:29:51.368
If your job involves a bell schedule, this site's for you. It's free for job seekers.

00:29:51.628 --> 00:29:55.748
You can upload your resume, set job alerts, and apply without jumping through hoops.

00:29:55.908 --> 00:30:01.088
Schools across New Jersey actively use njschooljobs.com so these are real current openings.

00:30:01.308 --> 00:30:06.028
They also host virtual job fairs where you can connect with multiple districts online.

00:30:06.308 --> 00:30:10.328
No driving all over the state. Those are coming up soon, so check the link in

00:30:10.328 --> 00:30:12.028
our episode description to register.

00:30:12.288 --> 00:30:15.148
Head to njschooljobs.com.

00:30:17.488 --> 00:30:21.048
Hey, Teacher Besties! I'm Andrea Forkham, and I am so excited to share with

00:30:21.048 --> 00:30:24.448
you that my book, They Never Taught Us That, is available right now.

00:30:24.468 --> 00:30:28.968
It is everything an experienced or first-year teacher needs to manage the chaos

00:30:28.968 --> 00:30:33.088
of the modern classroom, including some anecdotes to make you feel a little bit better.

00:30:33.268 --> 00:30:36.628
Because if there is a way that you can screw up, I've probably done it.

00:30:36.808 --> 00:30:40.508
It also has advice on how to build trust with families, how to manage grading

00:30:40.508 --> 00:30:42.328
and lesson plans and IEPs and

00:30:42.328 --> 00:30:45.208
everything else that they never went over in your teacher prep program.

00:30:45.728 --> 00:30:48.288
They never taught us that is available everywhere right now.

00:30:48.868 --> 00:30:51.548
Right. Well, and when there's such a high level of competition,

00:30:52.308 --> 00:30:54.748
right, that's when relational aggression comes out.

00:30:55.228 --> 00:31:00.588
So it's not the only reason, but one of the more evolutionary reasons is...

00:31:01.644 --> 00:31:06.244
When resources were scarce or when we thought resources were scarce or when

00:31:06.244 --> 00:31:09.604
we thought, you know, our position in the group would be threatened.

00:31:10.764 --> 00:31:16.184
Women couldn't act out aggressively in a physical way. Women were traditionally smaller.

00:31:16.784 --> 00:31:22.024
They were traditionally in charge of actually the, like, child rearing while

00:31:22.024 --> 00:31:24.604
the men went out and did the hunting or the fighting, right?

00:31:24.604 --> 00:31:30.584
So women had to find a way to express their anger and frustrations and to protect

00:31:30.584 --> 00:31:33.304
their position or status in the group.

00:31:33.504 --> 00:31:37.744
And so that's one of the ways relational aggression was born.

00:31:37.884 --> 00:31:42.664
And so we're seeing the same thing. We're just seeing it in online comments.

00:31:42.664 --> 00:31:47.204
We're seeing it in rude comments and to your face, you know what you did or,

00:31:47.404 --> 00:31:50.444
you know, oh, really? Is that was that his first choice?

00:31:50.644 --> 00:31:54.044
Right. That could be like that. that i i

00:31:54.044 --> 00:31:57.004
mean come on like i i want to say curse

00:31:57.004 --> 00:32:00.064
words but like come on like let whatever

00:32:00.064 --> 00:32:05.804
like whatever like if i said to jamie like knowing what schools that drew was

00:32:05.804 --> 00:32:08.944
between and said oh why did they choose this one over that one and your comment

00:32:08.944 --> 00:32:14.084
is well this school is has the program but it's much much more money so like

00:32:14.084 --> 00:32:18.884
that's that's plays into all the decisions and by the way None of the schools that are applied,

00:32:19.044 --> 00:32:21.344
except for one of them, I would think,

00:32:21.904 --> 00:32:25.364
and both of our kids applied, all of our kids applied to that school,

00:32:25.584 --> 00:32:28.044
like, that would be, like, the most expensive one, right?

00:32:28.924 --> 00:32:31.344
Which would be Seton Hall. Right. Like, we weren't looking at,

00:32:31.444 --> 00:32:33.624
like, $80,000. Yeah. There was none of that.

00:32:34.024 --> 00:32:37.884
And there's some people that are. And, like, I don't want my kids to graduate

00:32:37.884 --> 00:32:41.124
with large amounts of debt. I want them to be happy on their college campus.

00:32:41.264 --> 00:32:44.444
I want them to find, you know, quote, unquote, find their people,

00:32:44.924 --> 00:32:46.384
do things that they're going to enjoy.

00:32:47.724 --> 00:32:53.284
And they're going to find all of those things like if they're involved in making the decision,

00:32:53.804 --> 00:32:58.144
on what's going to happen but like that comment that you just said like oh was

00:32:58.144 --> 00:33:01.344
that his first choice or like why would he want to go there there's a better

00:33:01.344 --> 00:33:02.924
thing over it blah blah blah like,

00:33:03.976 --> 00:33:07.236
Right. Because that's where they're going to be happiest. Like, God damn it.

00:33:07.376 --> 00:33:13.916
You know, you're like, because I'm not making my child carry the social rank for our family.

00:33:14.316 --> 00:33:19.476
Yeah. I'm letting my child choose where they think they'll belong best. Right.

00:33:19.996 --> 00:33:24.256
Right. Because the kids end up carrying or feeling the responsibility to carry

00:33:24.256 --> 00:33:28.196
that social rank for the family and propel it forward.

00:33:28.196 --> 00:33:32.076
Then every choice every decision right leads

00:33:32.076 --> 00:33:35.916
to pressure leads to anxiety leads to depression leads to not knowing themselves

00:33:35.916 --> 00:33:41.656
it's a constant and this is this is why i see it as like this big cultural mess

00:33:41.656 --> 00:33:47.516
because it starts here and it ends up with the highest you know rates of mental

00:33:47.516 --> 00:33:51.536
health illness in adolescents and young adults that we've ever seen.

00:33:52.679 --> 00:33:57.379
Because they're carrying things that are too heavy and too big and really aren't theirs to carry.

00:33:58.039 --> 00:34:01.059
Yeah. And that was my daughter through the beginning of the process with the

00:34:01.059 --> 00:34:04.719
SATs and going to school. What if I go there and I don't like it?

00:34:04.839 --> 00:34:08.859
And then I have to transfer out. I don't want to be that person.

00:34:09.039 --> 00:34:12.859
I'm like, you're literally saying all these things.

00:34:13.299 --> 00:34:16.359
And she was putting so much pressure on herself.

00:34:17.859 --> 00:34:21.939
And my wife and I never said to her, you got to do this.

00:34:21.939 --> 00:34:25.039
The thing and the school and we were

00:34:25.039 --> 00:34:27.739
like we were like like we don't care if you

00:34:27.739 --> 00:34:30.879
need to transfer like we we like we both transferred

00:34:30.879 --> 00:34:33.779
like we yeah we i was at three different places yeah

00:34:33.779 --> 00:34:36.979
so but you know what remember in never enough that oh

00:34:36.979 --> 00:34:40.659
my gosh i i was like oh no i do it um it

00:34:40.659 --> 00:34:43.379
was like oh don't worry about the test and like grades don't

00:34:43.379 --> 00:34:46.419
matter i love you no matter what and then it was like but the

00:34:46.419 --> 00:34:49.339
first thing that you ask them is like how was the test today or

00:34:49.339 --> 00:34:52.399
like how did you do today so sometimes like subliminally like

00:34:52.399 --> 00:34:55.439
we don't even i don't know if that's the right word like we don't even realize that

00:34:55.439 --> 00:34:59.119
we're doing that we're doing it and um you know and it's like you think that

00:34:59.119 --> 00:35:04.299
you're like parenting with like intentions uh that are really pure and you you

00:35:04.299 --> 00:35:07.779
know which is why i go back to like this is all our first time living so we're

00:35:07.779 --> 00:35:14.679
you know just yeah and we all listen we all went to college yeah it is not like it is it is not.

00:35:15.707 --> 00:35:19.547
It's like I never even went in regards to like the application process and how

00:35:19.547 --> 00:35:21.187
it all works and how it all goes down.

00:35:21.607 --> 00:35:24.227
And, and, and doc, I know you're not in that.

00:35:25.027 --> 00:35:28.607
I have a junior. I have a junior. There you are. So you're, you're just going

00:35:28.607 --> 00:35:32.447
to be like that. We're getting there. Yeah. No, you're there. Yeah. We're there.

00:35:33.087 --> 00:35:36.887
My favorite and only tip is you can challenge the merit money.

00:35:37.207 --> 00:35:41.887
Yeah. That is really good to know. Yeah. Wait as long as you possibly can to accept. Yeah.

00:35:42.187 --> 00:35:45.487
Okay. Because a couple of weeks before, like May 1st is Decision Day and like

00:35:45.487 --> 00:35:46.527
a couple of weeks before.

00:35:47.247 --> 00:35:51.087
And even after you've already been accepted to the, they've already accepted

00:35:51.087 --> 00:35:55.907
that school and paid the deposit, you can still challenge their merit money

00:35:55.907 --> 00:35:57.587
and the school can offer you more.

00:35:57.727 --> 00:36:00.847
Because we just sort of did a little bit. And we were, I was like,

00:36:00.907 --> 00:36:02.587
what's the difference? Let's try again, you know.

00:36:02.827 --> 00:36:09.747
And we did. And they, yeah. So I really was like, I had no idea that that existed

00:36:09.747 --> 00:36:16.187
at all, which is awesome. And also, you know, what I learned from some of my mean parent groups.

00:36:16.387 --> 00:36:19.987
Well, I was going to say, you know, it's interesting because...

00:36:20.694 --> 00:36:27.474
Since I've started talking so openly about mean girl behavior,

00:36:27.754 --> 00:36:34.734
mean girl moms, competition among parents, you know, I made a post about the humble brag.

00:36:35.574 --> 00:36:38.774
You guys know what a humble brag is, right? Yes, of course.

00:36:39.194 --> 00:36:43.094
Okay. So a lot of people were like, I love a humble brag.

00:36:43.294 --> 00:36:46.534
I'm like, no, you don't. You don't understand what a humble brag is.

00:36:46.534 --> 00:36:50.954
They thought it meant like when you're humble, but you want to like share something.

00:36:51.254 --> 00:36:55.694
I'm like, that's not a humble brag. That's just saying something humbly.

00:36:55.954 --> 00:36:59.874
A humble brag is when you're disguising like this is so hard for me.

00:37:00.034 --> 00:37:03.574
So you want sympathy, but you also want acknowledgement, right?

00:37:03.734 --> 00:37:05.634
Like the humble brag is not humble.

00:37:05.814 --> 00:37:08.414
It's the opposite. It's anyway.

00:37:09.994 --> 00:37:12.634
Why am I even sharing this? Something about the humble brag.

00:37:12.634 --> 00:37:18.274
Oh, so since I started talking about all this stuff, I'm finding that I'm not

00:37:18.274 --> 00:37:20.014
experiencing a lot of these behaviors.

00:37:20.454 --> 00:37:25.954
But I think people are like, oh, I'm going to watch my P's and Q's when I'm talking to her.

00:37:26.094 --> 00:37:29.474
There could definitely be some of that. So I'm like, I'm starting to notice

00:37:29.474 --> 00:37:32.754
it less and less. And then I'm like, oh, well, I guess I know why.

00:37:34.214 --> 00:37:40.174
You know. Yeah. So I'm not experiencing it as much, but I think that's because

00:37:40.174 --> 00:37:43.014
people know that's what I talk about.

00:37:43.154 --> 00:37:46.214
And the good news is that means, guess what?

00:37:46.374 --> 00:37:50.434
That people know what they're doing and they know how to change that behavior,

00:37:50.434 --> 00:37:54.234
but we don't call them out. And so they don't, right?

00:37:54.734 --> 00:37:58.654
It's like anything with kids, with teenagers, right?

00:37:58.774 --> 00:38:04.294
Like if I can get away with being loud and talking in class and like messing

00:38:04.294 --> 00:38:05.494
around, I'm going to do it.

00:38:06.474 --> 00:38:10.134
But if I have a teacher who's like, knock it off, I'm going to not do it.

00:38:10.294 --> 00:38:14.114
Yeah. It goes back to the whole, you know what you did. Like, oh, no, I don't.

00:38:14.514 --> 00:38:18.694
Right. You know, it's like if you did that to your spouse, you know what I mean?

00:38:19.974 --> 00:38:23.834
If my wife did that to me, if I said, hey, what did I blah, blah,

00:38:23.874 --> 00:38:27.634
blah? And she goes, you know what you did. I would spiral like you wouldn't believe.

00:38:28.154 --> 00:38:31.334
And if, James, if you said that to your wonderful husband, he'd be like,

00:38:31.414 --> 00:38:33.934
yeah, I really don't know what you're talking about. Oh, I mean,

00:38:34.014 --> 00:38:36.114
he doesn't know a lot. He doesn't know a lot.

00:38:36.254 --> 00:38:38.054
He'd be like, oh, that must have been awful. He really is an innocent.

00:38:38.074 --> 00:38:39.294
That must have been awful for you.

00:38:39.674 --> 00:38:43.254
That must have been awful for you. He just texted me and he said, what time is it there?

00:38:43.554 --> 00:38:47.994
Because he is, it's his favorite thing to say. because he is in another part

00:38:47.994 --> 00:38:50.714
of the state helping his own parents.

00:38:51.374 --> 00:38:56.594
And really they're now in their own like their sandwich generation journey together

00:38:56.594 --> 00:38:59.834
has just begun. And so he's like, what time is it there?

00:39:00.234 --> 00:39:02.154
It's like, but it's still New Jersey.

00:39:03.254 --> 00:39:05.814
You feel like it's a different time zone because you're, you know,

00:39:05.914 --> 00:39:09.554
like you're getting that headspace of like, where am I? And what's happening to me?

00:39:09.794 --> 00:39:12.754
So it's always, what time is it there? Is it 6.15 there?

00:39:12.954 --> 00:39:18.214
Yes. No, I think that this is something that many parents are experiencing on

00:39:18.214 --> 00:39:21.454
the female side more than on the male side, right?

00:39:22.754 --> 00:39:26.414
And, you know, I don't, and that's why I don't want to interject my opinion

00:39:26.414 --> 00:39:28.414
on this because I don't have one.

00:39:28.954 --> 00:39:36.534
It's not something that I experience on a regular basis because that's not what I'm exposed to.

00:39:36.534 --> 00:39:39.834
But I can see and hear like from my wife sometimes, even like,

00:39:39.994 --> 00:39:44.054
you know, even like, you know, like when people talk about their jobs and their

00:39:44.054 --> 00:39:48.254
work and they're like, I'm sure we see this at our at our like and I work in

00:39:48.254 --> 00:39:49.814
a female dominated profession. Right.

00:39:50.194 --> 00:39:55.874
So there is a lot of that in the dynamic of other teachers that work together

00:39:55.874 --> 00:39:59.394
where where we can also see like.

00:40:00.376 --> 00:40:02.036
We've interviewed quite a few people

00:40:02.036 --> 00:40:05.056
who've had, like, very uncomfortable situations in schools. Oh, really?

00:40:05.936 --> 00:40:10.316
So many. And we have gotten really some good advice along the way,

00:40:10.396 --> 00:40:15.356
which is, you know, if you love teaching, but you don't love your school, find a new school.

00:40:15.576 --> 00:40:18.996
Don't leave teaching. Yeah. Because oftentimes, you know, it could be,

00:40:19.136 --> 00:40:23.116
like, an age difference or an experience difference or people think the boss

00:40:23.116 --> 00:40:26.016
prefers someone over someone else.

00:40:26.016 --> 00:40:30.936
And so they get this level of like, you know, uncomfortable uncomfortability

00:40:30.936 --> 00:40:35.516
and then like they get ostracized for whatever reason. And then they're like

00:40:35.516 --> 00:40:36.816
all alone in this environment.

00:40:37.216 --> 00:40:41.296
And, you know, as a teacher, you're not with other adults that often.

00:40:41.656 --> 00:40:45.616
Right. But when you are, you know, it's almost like a. . .

00:40:46.792 --> 00:40:49.592
Oh like i'm please you know help me

00:40:49.592 --> 00:40:54.352
uh water in the desert you know you were like oh another grown-up and then to

00:40:54.352 --> 00:40:58.852
have those grown-ups like turn their back on you and mistreat you it's like

00:40:58.852 --> 00:41:03.712
it makes it like extra damage or like you're the person that transfers into

00:41:03.712 --> 00:41:08.292
the new team and you're not liked just because you transferred in from a different building from an.

00:41:09.732 --> 00:41:13.612
And you could be transferring in because you needed the change or wow you're

00:41:13.612 --> 00:41:18.192
really passionate about seventh grade English and you really wanted to teach it or whatever it is.

00:41:18.332 --> 00:41:20.092
You know what I mean? Like you got to accept people. Or you're transferring

00:41:20.092 --> 00:41:22.632
because nobody liked you at your other school. And yeah, you know,

00:41:22.672 --> 00:41:24.792
like it's like made up stories about people.

00:41:25.132 --> 00:41:27.312
It's so. So it's like click, click behavior.

00:41:27.812 --> 00:41:31.552
Oh yeah. A thousand. Teachers are very, teachers can be very click.

00:41:31.652 --> 00:41:33.372
Okay. A thousand percent. Yeah. It sounds like a click.

00:41:33.712 --> 00:41:38.572
And I always like to. You even see it like during like, you made a comment on

00:41:38.572 --> 00:41:40.952
a previous episode about like state testing that just went by,

00:41:41.072 --> 00:41:43.852
which state testing is the worst because you are

00:41:43.852 --> 00:41:46.812
just alone with your thoughts um you know

00:41:46.812 --> 00:41:49.792
walking around the room because you can't read anything do anything sit

00:41:49.792 --> 00:41:52.512
down talk to anyone you just have to like monitor the

00:41:52.512 --> 00:41:55.812
kids for like two hours and 20 minutes and with someone who has

00:41:55.812 --> 00:41:58.832
uh ocd and adhd like me and

00:41:58.832 --> 00:42:01.812
being alone with your thoughts for that long um you want

00:42:01.812 --> 00:42:04.552
to jump out a window but you can't because you're on the first floor so it

00:42:04.552 --> 00:42:08.212
really doesn't do any good um but it but here's

00:42:08.212 --> 00:42:11.192
a perfect example like what and i'm sorry to interrupt shame

00:42:11.192 --> 00:42:14.112
but like people would be like hey why why are you on bathroom duty

00:42:14.112 --> 00:42:16.852
and not in one of the testing rooms and somebody said

00:42:16.852 --> 00:42:20.052
i think might have said that to you jame and i was like yeah well that's

00:42:20.052 --> 00:42:23.292
they they you know we get that we get an email and it has the entire building

00:42:23.292 --> 00:42:27.772
schedule with where everyone's going to be and what everyone's assignments are

00:42:27.772 --> 00:42:33.652
yeah and what's so fascinating to me is that like i open it and i look for like

00:42:33.652 --> 00:42:37.852
wonko at the bottom you're like Wonko, wonko, wonko, wonko. Okay, wonko.

00:42:38.052 --> 00:42:40.412
Okay, here, here, here. Okay, me.

00:42:40.832 --> 00:42:42.932
What other people do is...

00:42:44.577 --> 00:42:51.717
Paul, Jim, John, Andy, Laura, like they they're now looking at where everyone else is.

00:42:51.937 --> 00:42:55.897
All that person's not in the testing room because because they're they're they're

00:42:55.897 --> 00:42:57.357
not going to follow what the rules are.

00:42:57.537 --> 00:43:00.497
And all that person's in there because they're the phys ed teachers and they

00:43:00.497 --> 00:43:02.337
don't do the testing. They just sit at the bathrooms.

00:43:02.517 --> 00:43:05.997
And then this person, Bob, like or like some would say they're keeping tabs.

00:43:05.997 --> 00:43:08.517
Yeah, like when I was doing technology stuff in the district,

00:43:08.597 --> 00:43:13.357
I would be like the technology person and help with the devices,

00:43:13.717 --> 00:43:15.897
which was literally turn it off and turn it back on again.

00:43:16.097 --> 00:43:18.837
And somebody would say to me, like, oh, why are you the new guy in the building

00:43:18.837 --> 00:43:19.897
and you don't get to do testing?

00:43:20.077 --> 00:43:24.637
I'd be like, hey, because I've been doing this for like 23 years, so maybe, maybe.

00:43:26.221 --> 00:43:29.201
When you're doing this for 23 years, then you'll be me and I'll be gone.

00:43:29.461 --> 00:43:32.361
And then that's the way it works. And I'm not saying you have to pay your dues,

00:43:32.441 --> 00:43:34.381
but, you know, that's just the way it is.

00:43:34.721 --> 00:43:40.041
Yeah. Anyone in a school building can attest to that level of. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

00:43:40.481 --> 00:43:46.861
I'm like, I don't look at the schedule and creep on what other people. But it is super common.

00:43:47.381 --> 00:43:53.581
Yeah. It's crazy. Well, and I always try to tell my parents of teens or my parents

00:43:53.581 --> 00:43:58.941
in mom groups that, you know, because they'll say, but, you know, everyone wants a group.

00:43:59.201 --> 00:44:02.361
Everyone likes to have a group. Well, first of all, not everybody does.

00:44:02.581 --> 00:44:06.261
Some people feel forced into a group. Not everybody's a big group kind of person.

00:44:06.481 --> 00:44:10.461
You know, now kids are having like friend groups that are like 15 people,

00:44:10.601 --> 00:44:13.861
20 people deep instead of just like a handful of friends.

00:44:13.861 --> 00:44:18.781
But that's a whole different conversation. But I try to explain that it's fine

00:44:18.781 --> 00:44:24.701
to have a group or a friend group or a, you know, teaching group or your department.

00:44:25.201 --> 00:44:29.721
But when they start to be closed groups, that's when they become cliques.

00:44:30.001 --> 00:44:33.981
There's nothing wrong with an open friend group. And by open,

00:44:34.121 --> 00:44:37.341
that means people's positions in that group can change.

00:44:37.401 --> 00:44:40.281
You can let people in. You can let people out.

00:44:40.461 --> 00:44:43.561
Someone can be the leader one week. Someone takes a back seat the next week.

00:44:43.661 --> 00:44:45.001
It's a little bit more fluid.

00:44:45.721 --> 00:44:49.601
A click is when you start having to ascribe to group rules, group norms,

00:44:49.761 --> 00:44:54.861
group behaviors, and people's status and hierarchy in the group starts to be set.

00:44:55.399 --> 00:44:58.719
That's what we want to avoid. There's nothing wrong with groups,

00:44:58.719 --> 00:45:02.119
but it's that closed group system.

00:45:02.699 --> 00:45:07.679
And we start to see the problems. And parents, if your kids are part of a 15,

00:45:07.959 --> 00:45:12.619
16, 17 kid friend group and there's the big chat with everyone's in it,

00:45:12.819 --> 00:45:14.859
I'll guarantee you I will put money on it.

00:45:15.119 --> 00:45:19.179
That there is a separate chat of a small group of people that are talking junk

00:45:19.179 --> 00:45:22.459
about some of the other kids that are in that group. The side chat.

00:45:22.699 --> 00:45:27.099
The side chat. There's always the side chat. Look, we got one in my fantasy

00:45:27.099 --> 00:45:31.859
football group. It's the four guys that, you know, we literally talk about nothing,

00:45:31.899 --> 00:45:33.899
but we'll like talk about the

00:45:33.899 --> 00:45:36.599
games or whatever else because other people don't want to be in that chat.

00:45:36.759 --> 00:45:40.039
So literally the four of us that are in that chat are just like because the

00:45:40.039 --> 00:45:42.319
other people don't want to be bothered by group text messages.

00:45:42.319 --> 00:45:43.739
So we have like a separate thing.

00:45:43.879 --> 00:45:46.119
But like it gets ugly.

00:45:46.299 --> 00:45:50.779
I would always say to my daughter all the time, nothing good ever happens in a group chat.

00:45:50.779 --> 00:45:54.519
She was in a soccer group chat for the team and then like kids would start talking

00:45:54.519 --> 00:45:57.459
about each other and they'd be arguing with each other and she'd be getting

00:45:57.459 --> 00:46:02.159
like 65 messages at night, 85 messages at night, 105 messages at night.

00:46:02.299 --> 00:46:04.479
And I'd be like, Sophia, there's a very easy way to do this.

00:46:04.579 --> 00:46:07.259
And I would just go to her phone and hit the button, be like, leave group.

00:46:08.852 --> 00:46:12.172
Like, it's real easy for me to do that as her dad. And she was younger at the time.

00:46:12.672 --> 00:46:16.712
Yeah. But, like, to experience that and to see, like, I don't want to deal with

00:46:16.712 --> 00:46:18.772
this. It's all this drama. Like, then leave. Yeah.

00:46:19.092 --> 00:46:22.012
It's really, really easy for me to say. For her. Exactly. I was going to say,

00:46:22.132 --> 00:46:26.812
for her, she leaves that social signaling and that signaling something to the

00:46:26.812 --> 00:46:29.652
group about, I don't want to belong.

00:46:29.692 --> 00:46:34.832
And the belonging is, you know, biologically wired in us as humans.

00:46:35.032 --> 00:46:40.932
And so you feel really stuck. Like people feel like I they may notice something

00:46:40.932 --> 00:46:47.632
toxic about a group or bad about a group or relational aggression and they're afraid to leave.

00:46:47.912 --> 00:46:50.872
They're afraid of the backlash, especially.

00:46:51.172 --> 00:46:56.072
Well, I see it in adults and kids, but but I feel worse for kids because it's

00:46:56.072 --> 00:47:00.432
really scary to leave something and then to not belong.

00:47:00.712 --> 00:47:03.752
Or when when a kid sets boundaries.

00:47:04.392 --> 00:47:10.032
Yes. And when they do and they stick to those boundaries and they get upset

00:47:10.032 --> 00:47:11.772
or they decide to be like, hey, you know what?

00:47:11.832 --> 00:47:15.732
I need some space from this because I've set a boundary and you've crossed it

00:47:15.732 --> 00:47:19.192
and I've asked you multiple times not to. So, therefore...

00:47:20.209 --> 00:47:25.509
I need to step away for a little bit. That becomes also something that like,

00:47:25.669 --> 00:47:27.549
oh, why, you know, why make it such a big deal?

00:47:27.689 --> 00:47:31.169
Like, no, no, no. I have like standards that I set for myself. Yes.

00:47:31.769 --> 00:47:34.829
And in order to be able to do that, you have to get really comfortable.

00:47:35.029 --> 00:47:38.649
So people ask me all the time, like, well, what do we do? What should we do?

00:47:38.789 --> 00:47:44.089
Like if we're in a group that is using toxic behaviors or relational aggression and. Great question.

00:47:44.989 --> 00:47:46.829
Great statement because I was going to ask that, by the way.

00:47:46.929 --> 00:47:53.249
Sorry. Yeah, there's no really great answer other than you have to get comfortable being uncomfortable.

00:47:54.229 --> 00:47:59.749
These behaviors have become very, very normalized in our culture.

00:48:00.449 --> 00:48:07.769
It's become very sort of expected. You know, you hear people say, oh, girls will be girls.

00:48:07.869 --> 00:48:11.049
Every middle schooler or young high schooler has to go through this.

00:48:11.189 --> 00:48:13.569
That really actually shouldn't have to be true.

00:48:14.109 --> 00:48:18.729
And so you have to get comfortable being someone who says, I'm not comfortable

00:48:18.729 --> 00:48:23.129
with this, and I would rather deal with the consequences on the other side.

00:48:23.309 --> 00:48:27.989
And as parents, we can be there to support our kids when they are going through,

00:48:28.889 --> 00:48:31.889
you know, let's say they set a boundary and then they're kicked out of the group

00:48:31.889 --> 00:48:34.409
chat, or they set a boundary and they're not invited to the party.

00:48:34.409 --> 00:48:39.109
As parents, we need to have conversations about, well, are those the types of

00:48:39.109 --> 00:48:42.689
people that you want to spend your time with, right?

00:48:43.189 --> 00:48:51.489
It's not going to be easy to disrupt social norms, especially not in a group setting.

00:48:52.752 --> 00:49:00.252
But there's peace and happiness and contentment on the other side once you push through.

00:49:00.872 --> 00:49:06.272
Right. And I think you must have a lot of people who deal with that with families

00:49:06.272 --> 00:49:07.572
because it's almost – Always.

00:49:07.872 --> 00:49:10.232
It's like more impossible with your family because it's like,

00:49:10.352 --> 00:49:12.012
oh, you're supposed to and they're your family.

00:49:12.532 --> 00:49:17.052
Whereas I think as for adults with your friends, like it's difficult,

00:49:17.092 --> 00:49:22.752
but it's not so interwoven as it is with family.

00:49:23.072 --> 00:49:28.652
Yeah, well, and I think part of why I get so interested in this in mom groups

00:49:28.652 --> 00:49:30.612
is because when you're in a mom group,

00:49:30.772 --> 00:49:35.592
usually those other mothers are in the same school or in the same neighborhood

00:49:35.592 --> 00:49:39.612
or in the same church community or synagogue, whatever, right?

00:49:39.612 --> 00:49:42.532
They're in your infrastructure.

00:49:43.492 --> 00:49:49.592
And when you can't leave your infrastructure or your group is part of your infrastructure,

00:49:49.592 --> 00:49:52.452
just like with your family, you are stuck.

00:49:52.472 --> 00:49:56.592
And then you feel like you're trapped between a rock and a hard place, right?

00:49:56.732 --> 00:50:02.312
You're like, do I deal with it or do I leave and then disrupt the entire system?

00:50:03.572 --> 00:50:07.792
So I have to see these people at school, or I have to see these people at the

00:50:07.792 --> 00:50:11.592
pool, or I have to be with these people for the next 12 years.

00:50:13.112 --> 00:50:13.712
For sure.

00:50:14.988 --> 00:50:20.988
So recently, also, Doc, one of the things we'd love to end up with is you were

00:50:20.988 --> 00:50:22.628
on the Tamron Hall Show. Yes!

00:50:23.148 --> 00:50:28.968
Which was super exciting. I saw that you were in New York City for a whirlwind 24 hours.

00:50:29.328 --> 00:50:32.108
We talked. Yes. I was like, man, if you had more time, we would have met for

00:50:32.108 --> 00:50:33.308
a drink somewhere because we were so close.

00:50:33.568 --> 00:50:37.228
Seriously, yes. Yeah. But no, we'd love to hear about your experience and what

00:50:37.228 --> 00:50:38.488
you guys talked about. Oh, it was great.

00:50:39.408 --> 00:50:42.488
Admittedly, I know it was end of April that I think it broadcast.

00:50:42.768 --> 00:50:47.108
I didn't get a chance to watch that. It was April 27th. So if you go, it's on YouTube.

00:50:47.688 --> 00:50:51.868
Got it. Unfortunately, on YouTube, you have to go to like the Tamron Hall show

00:50:51.868 --> 00:50:54.348
channel or whatever on YouTube.

00:50:54.628 --> 00:50:59.748
And then it's like broken into five or six because it was like six, I think six segments.

00:51:00.168 --> 00:51:05.588
So the whole hour was on toxic mom groups.

00:51:05.908 --> 00:51:11.808
So the entire hour. And they had myself and another parenting expert, Erica Suter.

00:51:11.808 --> 00:51:15.108
So her and I were on as the experts,

00:51:15.108 --> 00:51:20.948
and then they brought in three other women that have written articles or talked

00:51:20.948 --> 00:51:26.808
publicly on social media about their experience with toxic mom groups.

00:51:27.528 --> 00:51:33.348
And so the whole segment was hearing their stories, Erica and I sharing our

00:51:33.348 --> 00:51:40.308
professional opinions, and it was wonderful to have it on, you know, national television.

00:51:41.808 --> 00:51:45.148
Talking about the distress it causes for some women.

00:51:45.428 --> 00:51:50.308
Well, and that's why I think it's important to, I'm glad this conversation is happening.

00:51:50.708 --> 00:51:55.588
Like, not just on this show. I mean, like, in society in general,

00:51:55.768 --> 00:51:58.928
because we're like at this, not to be political for a second,

00:51:59.008 --> 00:52:02.628
but like we're at this tipping point where people believe I could just say whatever I want to say.

00:52:02.928 --> 00:52:07.168
Right. And like, okay, yeah, technically you can.

00:52:07.548 --> 00:52:09.308
Right. But like, should you?

00:52:10.308 --> 00:52:12.028
You know, maybe...

00:52:12.864 --> 00:52:17.924
But there's also ways to express yourself or share your feelings without,

00:52:18.424 --> 00:52:21.864
you know, my dad always said, like, you can disagree without being disagreeable.

00:52:22.304 --> 00:52:26.124
Absolutely. And it is, you know, a learned skill.

00:52:26.684 --> 00:52:30.564
So, you know, and sometimes what's difficult to explain to kids,

00:52:30.624 --> 00:52:34.964
and it is so true, like, mean kids become mean adults.

00:52:35.244 --> 00:52:40.324
Yes, they do. You know, and it's so it is like creating this awareness of,

00:52:40.844 --> 00:52:45.104
yeah, you can tell somebody what you feel and that you're not agreeing with

00:52:45.104 --> 00:52:47.024
them without being awful.

00:52:47.524 --> 00:52:51.404
Right. And I think it goes back to also we can do hard things.

00:52:52.164 --> 00:52:56.384
You can, you can, it's not going to be fun. I'm not saying it's fun.

00:52:57.084 --> 00:53:02.284
You can disrupt a group. You can say, I don't like how you treat people.

00:53:02.344 --> 00:53:04.204
I don't like how you party every

00:53:04.204 --> 00:53:07.804
weekend. I don't like how you drink and drive, whatever it is, right?

00:53:08.064 --> 00:53:13.624
You can say that and you can be uncomfortable and you can learn how to be uncomfortable.

00:53:14.024 --> 00:53:18.844
And hopefully you have parents that can help you through that discomfort and

00:53:18.844 --> 00:53:24.564
how to regulate and how to find new friends and tolerate discomfort for integrity.

00:53:24.824 --> 00:53:30.264
So I think a lot of times it comes back to understanding what are my integrity factors?

00:53:31.364 --> 00:53:35.264
What do I need to feel good about? at the end of the day?

00:53:35.564 --> 00:53:40.404
And am I living a life around the types of people that will allow me to feel good about that?

00:53:40.744 --> 00:53:46.504
Or am I just going along to get along because I think I have no other choice? That is so.

00:53:48.924 --> 00:53:53.204
That is such great advice. It really is. It's so important. Yeah.

00:53:53.584 --> 00:53:58.024
It really, really is. It's that easy. I mean, it sounds easy. It's hard.

00:53:58.204 --> 00:54:01.664
I'm not saying it's not hard, but we can do it, right?

00:54:01.764 --> 00:54:05.524
Talk about grit, right? Like, you can learn those lessons. You can do those

00:54:05.524 --> 00:54:06.884
things. It will not be fun.

00:54:06.984 --> 00:54:11.124
It will not be easy. But it's so important. And it's such a life lesson.

00:54:12.090 --> 00:54:16.710
And you will feel so much better about yourself when you look in the mirror at the end of the day.

00:54:16.730 --> 00:54:20.670
And I don't care if you're 13, 14, 15, 36, 46, 56.

00:54:21.110 --> 00:54:23.130
It's important at any of the stages.

00:54:23.870 --> 00:54:29.250
Yeah. And sometimes it takes a lot to learn that.

00:54:30.510 --> 00:54:35.490
Yeah. I get really disappointed by media sometimes. So, like,

00:54:35.510 --> 00:54:39.730
I was also at, I went to, it's called Mom 2.0.

00:54:39.890 --> 00:54:42.570
Oh, I saw it. I did see you post stuff about that. Yeah.

00:54:43.030 --> 00:54:47.750
That was all in the same whirlwind superstar week I had. I was like, who am I?

00:54:47.890 --> 00:54:53.010
But anyway, I was like, someone asked me, they said, you know,

00:54:53.150 --> 00:54:54.630
my husband's name is Anthony.

00:54:54.770 --> 00:54:57.170
They said, how's Anthony feel about this? I said, who's Anthony?

00:54:57.530 --> 00:54:58.750
And then I was like, just kidding.

00:54:59.430 --> 00:55:02.310
This is one week of my life. Let me enjoy it.

00:55:02.530 --> 00:55:10.330
But, you know, I ran into a producer at this mom 2.0 summit and I had just been on Tamron Hall.

00:55:10.670 --> 00:55:16.130
I've done CNN with Audie Cornish. Like some some bigger platforms are starting

00:55:16.130 --> 00:55:23.610
to talk about this instead of just looking at it like mom drama or, you know, toxic moms.

00:55:23.610 --> 00:55:26.370
Like it's kind of like trendy or eye rolly.

00:55:26.530 --> 00:55:30.130
And I'm like, it's really not. This has been going on forever.

00:55:30.290 --> 00:55:33.210
We've just not been talking about it. So one of the producers,

00:55:33.630 --> 00:55:38.110
I said, you know, would you ever think that, I think this could be a good topic

00:55:38.110 --> 00:55:41.130
for your, she was there with her client who was signing books.

00:55:42.210 --> 00:55:45.050
And I said, I think this could be an interesting topic for your viewers.

00:55:45.050 --> 00:55:47.090
And she said, I would never.

00:55:48.198 --> 00:55:52.778
Never have this topic on. Really? Wow. She said, I would not introduce this

00:55:52.778 --> 00:55:54.738
level of negativity on my show.

00:55:55.138 --> 00:56:01.878
Wow. Huh. And so it's kind of disappointing that, and to me, that's fear-based.

00:56:02.178 --> 00:56:07.018
It's not, we have to talk about hard things, right?

00:56:07.178 --> 00:56:11.198
Like to say that this is too negative, or a lot of people see it as pitting

00:56:11.198 --> 00:56:13.898
females against females, and I don't see it that way.

00:56:13.898 --> 00:56:19.498
I see it as empowering females to empower their children to say,

00:56:19.718 --> 00:56:23.898
we can know who we are and we can choose to opt out, period.

00:56:24.278 --> 00:56:27.298
It's not saying these are mean women, these are bad people.

00:56:27.458 --> 00:56:33.078
It's saying I can choose to partake or not partake in behaviors that don't align with my value system.

00:56:33.438 --> 00:56:37.458
So I get frustrated that it's either seen as trendy or negative,

00:56:37.458 --> 00:56:41.358
and I don't want that to be the message. I want the message to be,

00:56:41.538 --> 00:56:45.838
we don't have to, you know, go along with group think all the time.

00:56:46.098 --> 00:56:51.678
We don't have to be sheep. We can speak up and we can handle the discomfort of speaking up.

00:56:52.198 --> 00:56:58.318
Wow. That's the message, bottom line, right? Like you see a bad behavior, speak up.

00:56:59.038 --> 00:57:02.838
Yeah. And again, it's hard. Dr. Noelle Sancharelli, every time.

00:57:03.658 --> 00:57:04.858
Every single time. Thank you, guys.

00:57:05.158 --> 00:57:10.878
Thank you for having me. Yes. Before we go, we do have to do our usual little thing.

00:57:11.138 --> 00:57:15.458
And just to remind everybody, our season three is brought to you by our presenting

00:57:15.458 --> 00:57:16.918
sponsor, Teacher's Insurance Plan.

00:57:17.218 --> 00:57:20.978
Make sure you check out our website, which is linked in our episode, for more information.

00:57:21.178 --> 00:57:24.978
And to get a quote, Teacher's Insurance Plan, auto insurance that brings exclusive

00:57:24.978 --> 00:57:28.698
educator savings and exceptional customer care to New Jersey and Pennsylvania

00:57:28.698 --> 00:57:30.358
educational employees. Dr.

00:57:30.638 --> 00:57:33.218
Santorelli and Jamie, I appreciate you guys so much.

00:57:34.518 --> 00:57:37.378
Thank you, guys. and for being willing to join us. I really appreciate you.

00:57:37.378 --> 00:57:40.778
Of course. Appreciate you so much. Always. Have a great time.

00:57:41.358 --> 00:57:45.678
Awesome. And we'll see everybody next time on the Balancing Act Podcast. Bye.